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Old 11-09-2012, 12:03 PM   #121
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Will do it tomorrow. So you think the tail wag may have to do with the main rotor RPM variation? They're minimal on the graph below, but who knows... If that's the case, it could also be a sensor signal going to SK720 governor, the RPM shown on the log between test hovers is pure noise...

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Old 11-09-2012, 05:40 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jperkosk View Post
This is becoming a second Denis' "600N rebuild" thread .
Lol Sorry, couldn't help it when I read that. It's a real pain chasing some issue's down, but all the more satisfying when you eventually solve it
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:30 AM   #123
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Flashed HobbyWing Platinum 70A-HV ESC with Turnigy firmware last Saturday and went out to try it yesterday after Jorge's tribute.
The soft start seems somewhat improved, but the tail still sucks:


Followed Jeff's suggestion and turned off the soft start completely by setting start type to "normal" in the ESC. At very low gain values on the Tx it looked still shaky, but possibly improved:


So tried to increase the tail gains in the Tx and it got simply terrible:


Which points back to the noisy RPM sensor, I'm afraid. The thinking is the noise in the sensor causes slight but quick head RPM variation, which affects the tail. Will disable the SK720 governor and try HW-70A-HV's built in governor (which was much worse during the previous tests, but maybe improved with the newer firmware) because it doesn't depend on any external sensors, while the new Eagle Tree sensor is on a slow boat from China.

The 6HV'll go on the shelf until Christmas, I'm afraid, as my time home is running out and next weekend I'll have to leave on a month long job...
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:12 AM   #124
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I haven't watched your videos yet, but will in a little while. Every time I tried to use governors I ran into some issue or other, so I gave up. Each time I used a simple V-curve I had no issues whatsoever. All my helis are either a V-curve or flat, and none has any issues that I can see using this approach. Why not just do away with governors and see what happens. You should be able to tach it using your hearing to be similar to what you are used to in the first instance, and then use Raf's HeliPort or similar to double check it. As long as you are close to where you like it all will be well and you will know if it was the governor causing the tail issue.

Can you change the mounting orientation of the FBL unit? If you can, you can switch sensors from rudder to elevator, and see if that changes anything.

Also, have you tried operating the tail by hand under load? Remove the main blades, and spool up to a decent head speed, taking care to hold her still, since as you know the tail can produce a fair old thrust, and see if when pushing the tail push rod, disconnected at the servo, you can do it with ease, throughout its range. If you have any sticking points, this can be the cause of a wag. I have read about it and even seen it on a number of occasions.

I've also seen and read about simply misbalanced tails causing this, so if you have a way to balance it then it could be worth a try.


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Old 11-12-2012, 06:45 PM   #125
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Thanks Andy, very insightful post.

Will do the v-curve, it's probably a good idea. Don't need to tach anything, have RPM sensor mounted and functional (albeit a bit noisy) feeding both into telemetry unit and SK720 log file

Changing orientation on SK720 not impossible, but difficult.

Testing the tail's freedom of movement in my office under at high RPM sounds like fun

Imbalanced tail would show up on SK720's vibration log @ tail frequency, and it doesn't. Will review latest logs just to make sure.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:35 PM   #126
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Well, went back to my Belt 6HV. Did the following:
  1. Replaced Spektrum RPM sensor with HobbyWing one and tested in the office, sans the blades. Day and night difference, not a hint of the noise now.
  2. Flashed new 3.30 firmware into Skookum 720. By doing that, the governor has crapped out and it no longer works. Before flashing, tested it with the new sensor under v3.15, no problem, so it's the firmware version. Not to worry, I was going to test with a v-curve anyway, right?
  3. Changed the mounting of SK720 from very thick Zeal pad to thinner Align gel. The resulting tail performance has visibly improved, may go still thinner with a couple of layers of 3M gel tape, but need to evaluate SK720 flight logs first, don't want to allow too much vibrations get to the unit.
Flight tests. Fist clip shows what happens when plankers sneak up to the flight line while I was doing test hovers to set up the tail gain; I didn't turn around to see If anybody came up before taking off for the first test circuit . The second flight did the whole pack, the bird feels perfectly controllable except for the tail, which is OK now, but far away from great, I'm afraid. On the positive side, 20-25kph wind with 40kph gusts make no impresion on this bird whatsoever .




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Old 03-25-2013, 07:00 PM   #127
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Well if he went and stood in your box then without shouting, he deserved a bit of a shock. More seriously though, what did go wrong there, and how can you avoid it in future. Were you technically behind the flight line when you went screen right?

That aside she looked good to me Jerry. What exactly is wrong with the tail? Hard to know from the video. If you mean the fact that it isn't holding perfectly, within about 2 or 3cm, then is that an unreasonable amount of drift in such a gusty wind?

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:02 PM   #128
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Looking good Jerry

I had forgotten about this other prolonged build, so I read back a bit and wondered if you ever swapped that tail bearing?
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:13 PM   #129
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As always, few factors coincided to create an incident.
First, our helipad is an add-on to the original plank runway, so where the heli pilot's stand it's really few meters back in respect to the side of the runway where plankers stand, making the flight line few meters offset for planks and helis, never a good thing:


Second, there is a concrete slab in the grass at the edge of the runway (visible on the photo) where the plankers normally stand, about 20m from the heli area, but when there is a couple of plankers already there the following ones tend to "spill" along the edge, as the club allows 4-5 simultaneous planks in the air. In this case the guy stood right on the corner of heli box, at the bottom of the "V" painted on the runway.

Third, I was lazy and didn't go deep enough into the heli box, probably no more than 10m.

Forth, I was so busy hovering to set the tail I didn't notice the guy sneak up on me. When I decided tail was good enough for a test spin, I noticed I still had a couple of minutes left on the pack but I didn't look to my right to check if the situation on the flight line hasn't changed

In the end not such a big deal, I cleared the guy by 4-5m, but it was still a safety breach. I need to not allow myself in the future to focus so much on the setup as to forget to pull my eyes out of my arse and look around before the tkeoff, that's it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:19 PM   #130
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Yes Denis, I swapped the tail bearings but to no avail. There is still a bit of vertical vibrations in the tail, and I will attack it later (it's not the bearings and not the blades, checked the balance and they're OK), but the main problem seems to be too soft mounting of the SK720. I went from very thick Zeal gel to about half as thick Align PU gel and there is a huge difference for the better. If the vibes stay in check, I'll go for even thinner 3M gel tape.

Andy, the tail is workable, but I have it better on 600Ns that use old GY401. You might me right, though, I need to check it in calmer weather before another change...
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:06 PM   #131
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Well that was a detailed analysis Jerry. I hope you make that part of your powerpoint presentation to the safety committee at the next club meeting.

Understandable now that you have explained. I wonder if flying helis really gels nicely with plank flying at a club? When I attended a club, as a younger man, plank flier, they didn't really like heli fliers. If someone turned up with one they used to say, "we can't really accommodate you. You should seek out a specialist club". Usually the best we ever got was "You're welcome to fly here for today, but don't darken our doorstep again with your darkest of dark arts." I was a little disappointed, as I liked helis, even back then when all they seemed to do was get in the way of my full throttle high speed passes by hovering in the middle of the runway. That's all most people seemed to be able to do with them back then.

Half the time nobody was flying anyway. Could easily have had some sort of scheduling arrangement at out club, even on a busy day.

Don't know what most people think nowadays. At the heli clubs I've been to, nobody seems to object to anyone throwing a plank into the air every now and again.

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Old 03-26-2013, 06:51 PM   #132
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To me I find the planks vs heli's debate almost synonymous to that of skateboarders vs BMXer's, or snowboarders vs skiers, or windsurfers to boats etc.

Despite all the differing opinions, it's only when things go wrong and suddenly your watching someone being carried off to hospital, you realise your all on the same level and need to respect each other.

AMEN

Enough preaching, glad to hear you almost cracked it Jerry. Can't have you beating my longest build world record now can I

Edit : I just heard a rumour that Begian Officials are trying to form a team to make an attempt at the record
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:05 PM   #133
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So I have finally found the main reason for the high vertical vibrations on the tail!!! I have tested the tail blades before, and they were perfectly balanced, but now I took the whole tail rotor off and checked: one grip was significantly heavier than other! Tried to file it down, but to no avail, it feels like the grips aren't even from the same set I'll have to order a new set, but for now all it took to get things much better was this:



So yesterday I flew 6HV at the Easter festival and finally it flew fine, except for occasional shudder you can see in this video:


Today I have also found the reason for this shudder, brace yourselves:




I swear I flew a whole pack like this yesterday
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:32 PM   #134
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Duffus! Done something similar once, both blades on backwards. Swore she flew ok, too, just strange noise and behavior.

The tail grips would deffinately do it! Glade to see you're getting a handle on that now!
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:35 PM   #135
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What's wrong with it? I have studied it in minute detail but see no flaws.

What was the real reason, any clues. Having said that I have flown like that once in the past, but only got it into a hover before I thought, better set this down, something is wrong. Sure enough, when I saw it, I thought, mhhh, that's not good.

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Old 03-31-2013, 07:39 PM   #136
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Damn, you really did. I just checked the video. And there was me thinking, damn that 6HV is smooooth. lol.

More detailed pre-flight checks are in order me thinks! Especially for a public display. Damn that is funny, but just think how much better it will be now.

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Old 03-31-2013, 07:42 PM   #137
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Sorry to post again, but damn, that is just too funny. Tiny piece of tape on a tail blade improves it no end, and that huge great error seemingly makes no difference at all. lol. It did on mine. All I can say is WOW.

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Old 03-31-2013, 07:51 PM   #138
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It is funny and I did catch it today during the preflight, but not yesterday
Funny thing, while the shudder disappeared the tail wasn't as good today as it was yesterday . Well, >40kph occasional gusts may have had something to do with it, yesterday the gusts we nicely contained within 30kph range and when I flew 6HV it was almost calm...

Edit: the video is in the oven queque.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:15 PM   #139
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Here is the vid from today's last flight (yes, after flipping the blade around). Mind you, as the wind was picking up in the afternoon there were gusts that made me brace up standing up, but not too badly. On my wind scale a gust which just makes you open up your stand a bit without bending the knees is under 50kph. Will change the mounting of the SK720 to test, but it already flies quite nicely


P.S.1. This was from Hero2 which got relegated to HC duty today, so@30fps the blades bow much more and the overall quality is a notch lower, I think.
P.S.2. 1GB clip upload to YT in 1hr (from my office)!!!
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:49 AM   #140
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thats impresive , had once one blade backwards as on the pic and I couldn't get it off the ground , was shaking like crazy and off traking
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