Snake Bit!

[Hawk404]

Snake Bit: an idiom that, when applied to a specific project, hobby or endeavor means that an otherwise normal individual will meet with unending frustration and failure with that specific project.

RC Helicopters = Snake Bit.

MSH Brain on Trex 600: Computer crashes, tail servo goes all "exorcist" and strips its own gears. Fall back to the included 3GX in process. Servo rebuild kit ordered. Pushrod and tail group seem to have survived the humiliation but this is uncertain.

Blade Nano BNF and Spektrum 8 purchased for training - receiver binds ok followed by lift-off. At about 2" altitude LiPo catches on fire, smoke detector goes off and neighbor calls fire department. The only part of the Nano that's fried happens to be the 65.00 part which is roughly half of what the whole thing was worth.

It's actually pretty funny. A new Nano has been purchased and I'll retain the toasted one for spare parts.

The TRex 600 EFL PRO hasn't made it off the ground yet.

Roughly 3K dollars and I haven't even been able to properly crash one yet. Being a glutton for punishment I'm not kidding about the new Nano - I actually bought another though I'm not at all confident it won't self-immolate as well. The ability to bind AND catch on fire is something I'm assuming is rare and unique. I just wish the LiPo didn't stink as bad as it does when it goes up.

No advice solicited - just venting. That and I'm betting no one here has a sorrier tale of start up woes - if so, I'd like to hear it.

Betcha nobody here can match the above. If they can, what kept you from just chunking the entire mess into the dumpster?

[AlphaCharlie]

Oh that make me laugh! Thanks.

Oh - sorry to hear bout your woes, and I don't have any stories to offer, but I hope you get your gear sorted out soon.

Cheers - AC

[Hawk404]

Thanks for the kind thoughts there Alpha.

To me the most amazing part of the entire enterprise is how much a lipo battery, no larger than a proper paper clip, can smell that bad and produce that volume of smoke.

I shudder to think what would happen if one of those 6S monsters for the 600 went all spontaneous combustion on me. It'd be like popping the lid on a busload of wet dogs, gym socks and ripe vegamite.

I was also unaware that a servo could even make those kinds of sounds. I regret not having recorded the incident. I'm curious if playing it back in reverse would sound anything like "Paul is the walrus". I can only assume that the crashed computer program issued a command for the servo to become a boiled turnip and dance the jitterbug. The servo was merely doing its utmost to comply with the garbled command.

Moving on to the included, albeit much maligned by the forum, 3GX won't be smooth either. The dongle which communicates to a USB port is about 6mm in length. Finding a USB extension in darkest Kissimmee is like hunting unicorns in the arctic. The lone Radio Shack is either shut down or open at odd intervals. Even the local Best Buy has been reduced to selling mostly styrofoam beer coolers.

Fortunately Align has provided an alternative which seems to be akin to communicating a Shakespearean sonnet using only two colors and a beep. Why they went for this in favor of simply tasing the user in Morse code is unresolved.

Safety concerns are minimal as the ESC steadfastly refuses to arm possibly having something to do with my sorry cryptographic skills with the 3GX blinking lights and nose tweaking system. Regardless, the ESC sits there blinking at me in one color in subtly varying patterns.

Thus far the "one size fits all" ESC manual hasn't offered much other than reinforcing the idea that these things need to be read through in their entirety so that one does not find oneself in the position of having to unring a bell. I'm thinking here, of course, of the part that says "You must remove the red wire if using an external BEC. NO. Wait. That's not the case if you're using this here specific ESC which will melt down and kill a kitten if you remove the red wire" (I didn't remove the red wire...yet, but I'm not overly fond of cats).

And let's remember kids - if you're using a Futaba radio you must reverse the throttle channel even if the standard set-up for the ESC includes a reversed throttle channel and the 3GX has it reversed. So that's reversing a reversed reverse input. But I'm not using a Futaba so the transmitter isn't reversed but the ESC is and the FBL controller may or may not be reversed. How is that not clear? Maybe the ESC will arm if I go to full throttle? Nope, that wasn't it. Maybe I'll reverse the reversed reverses a time or two more. Maybe hold the radio upside down? Under water?

And what's up with the included BEC that's not really a BEC but rather a voltage regulator but we'll call it a BEC just because our first time customers actually rather enjoy a little verbal sleight of hand. I can almost picture the jokers packing up the kit: "and.. and... let's throw a 5.1 volt regulator in the box along with a bag full of 6 volt servos - that'll stir up the noobs!" "ooo" says another one "let's show a picture of a BATTERY ELIMINATOR thing with a BATTERY ATTACHED. That'll monkey wrench the old thought process!".

One has no choice other than to have a sense of humor while traveling down these 40 kilometers of bad road. The people writing the manuals have a sense of humor and one must play along. Besides, it is rather fun.

[Ozz58]

Oh, I could tell you stories about when I started. That was 20 years ago, no such thing as bind and "burn" back then, but I did do the BAC (Build And Crash) alot.

There wasn't anything but nitro, no sims. Our best friends were some dowl rods from Home Depo and wiffel balls. FM radios, not computer radios, just something called mixing on channels, no forums. Hell we were all alone with something that would chase you and if it could catch you it would kill you.

Gyros were hit and miss, if you could afford one.

It took me over $2000 to even get in the air back then.

Just trying to put things in perspective.

But I loved every dollar I spent back then,

Craig

[stevec]

Fantastic Rant.


I just wish I were as cool headed as that when criticising instruction manuals.

An excellent point well made.

/Steve

[BobK]

+1 I think the manuls are all in Greek.

[daveyht3]

If you don't like the brain I will kindly take it off you're hands if the price is right!

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by daveyht3

If you don't like the brain I will kindly take it off you're hands if the price is right!

While my post may have some minor "enhancement for dramatic effect" the Brain is actually suffering from something resembling demonic possession. I intend to flash (lobotomize?) the thing upon release of the next firmware upgrade, reinstall the computer portion and see if it might be exorcised. I'd prefer my first sale through the forum to not result in negative feedback.


Back to the manuals:

Can anybody translate the following which I found in the 3GX set-up portion of the manual:

Adjust the maximum collective pitch using the transmitter's swashplate mixing function (pitch swash AFR)...
...
While using the 3GX FBL system, be sure to turn off the following ... *Swash Mix * Mixing

Obviously the literal translation "make adjustments using that which must not be used" isn't the intent. Further they probably didn't intend to use what I gather is a Futaba specific term - at least there's no such thing as "AFR" to be found in my Spektrum.

My guess at translation: "Go away. Find a tutorial on setting up a flybar model, make use of it, then come back. We were only kidding about the AFR and, well, "mixing" means different things in different places".

'Bout right?

[Hawk404]

...the next day.

Despite the good fun picking on manuals I should probably, in the interest of full disclosure, admit that it seems to have come together rather well.

General notes from the first time builder:

1. Using selective ignorance of terminology the non-3GX settings were pretty easy. I forget what the actual menu item was but it was rich in percentages.

2. When first powered up the swash was level - at least visually. I may buy a leveler gizmo but it looks good at present with linkages sized per the manual. Good thing - the manual shows an apparent "not at 90 degree" neutral elevator servo horn. Since it came up level with 90 degree arms on the aileron and pitch I'm guessing it's intentional.
(page 11 of the PDF manual if anybody wants to check me out on this).

3. 3GX set-up was uneventful. One disconcerting thing is that the instructions state that if the thing boots up and bumps the swash three times "level" all is well but if it's three times "tilted" something is wrong.

It doesn't say anything about what mine does which is two "bumps" level. Meh. Probably changed it somewhere along the line.

4. The rudder seems super sensitive whether taking input from the stick or swatting the tail boom in one direction or the other and letting the gyro take over. Normal? The limits seem set correctly - full travel without servo "buzzing". It is right smack at the limits though - I get a little audible "click" at full left or right but it's barely "kissing".

5. Aileron gyro correction seems insensitive but this might be the limited travel (7 degrees) in set-up.

6. Oh yeah, if one sets the throttle travel from 100 to 125% the ESC will arm without complaint. I guess "zero" throttle wasn't "zero enough".

It actually finished up rather quickly and with minimal drama. Since I'm in no rush to run out and crash it I'll take a good deal of time to clean up the cabling, check tracking, maybe balance the blades and fiddle around with castle link and programming flight modes. I get some vibration at about 30% but it goes away above or below.

[stevec]

Originally Posted by Hawk404

...the next day.



4. The rudder seems super sensitive whether taking input from the stick or swatting the tail boom in one direction or the other and letting the gyro take over. Normal? The limits seem set correctly - full travel without servo "buzzing". It is right smack at the limits though - I get a little audible "click" at full left or right but it's barely "kissing".


6. Oh yeah, if one sets the throttle travel from 100 to 125% the ESC will arm without complaint. I guess "zero" throttle wasn't "zero enough".

Hi Hawk, yes the rudder will be super sensitive when not spooled up, the gyro compensates until it "feels" the tail come back to the heading if the heli isn't actually flying, nothing happens so it just keeps increasing the input. and with a fast tail servo that doesn't take too long...

the ESC should calibrate when you switch on with the trottle stick at full, you then close the throttle and it should be ok after that... I seem to remember having to set the endpoints higher on a turnigy esc once but other than that just calibrating usually works.

7 degrees isn't too far off, for the cyclic, you can always turn up the roll rates in the gui.

test fly it first though.

good luck.
Steve

[Hawk404]

Thanks!

Blade balancer and swash leveler gizmos haven't shown up yet so I don't know if this will cure the "30% jitters" or not.

Am I missing anything obvious apart from balancing, swash leveling and tracking?

It seems pretty solid at 45% throttle and zero pitch - what are the "usual suspects" in rpm-specific vibration? (It's not subtle - it shakes it up pretty well).

In an unrelated matter, one of the two 6S lipos "times out" the charger which never reports "full". According to the charger one of the cells is about .2 volts under the rest and insists on staying that way. If I switch from "balance" to "fast" it then reports "close enough". I'm assuming this is no big deal (?). If I'm reading the chinglish in the charger docs correctly the charger is considerably more obsessive in "balance" mode. It's the only lipo pack that annoys the charger sufficiently that it'll time out at 2 hours repeatedly.

...probably nothing but after setting the cpx battery on fire I'm a little gun-shy.

[stevec]

Originally Posted by Hawk404

Thanks!

Blade balancer and swash leveler gizmos haven't shown up yet so I don't know if this will cure the "30% jitters" or not.

Am I missing anything obvious apart from balancing, swash leveling and tracking?

It seems pretty solid at 45% throttle and zero pitch - what are the "usual suspects" in rpm-specific vibration? (It's not subtle - it shakes it up pretty well).

In an unrelated matter, one of the two 6S lipos "times out" the charger which never reports "full". According to the charger one of the cells is about .2 volts under the rest and insists on staying that way. If I switch from "balance" to "fast" it then reports "close enough". I'm assuming this is no big deal (?). If I'm reading the chinglish in the charger docs correctly the charger is considerably more obsessive in "balance" mode. It's the only lipo pack that annoys the charger sufficiently that it'll time out at 2 hours repeatedly.

...probably nothing but after setting the cpx battery on fire I'm a little gun-shy.

You could try bolting the blades together then get two glasses and use the bolt head and the shaft as the pivot. With the glasses holding the bolts up. ( this is sounding like those Chinese instructions doesn't it?) that is how I do it...

If the shakes stop after a certain throttle I'd say it is just a harmonic rather than something out of balance. If the blades were out of balance or out of track then the shakes don't go away.

Have you spooled it up and eyeballed it for tracking? If you are hovering then you can hover at eye level and eyeball it, or I find it easier if I'm flying on my own to set it at just under take off rpm/cyclic and kneel down a good way back and get to he same level as the rotor head.

The problem with hovering it is sometimes it is hard to tell which blade is high due to the light hitting the blades in the hover. So it is easier to do if you with a mate to look at it while you fly it.

As for the lipo 0.2 v isn't the end of the world it seems odd that the charger times out trying to balance it out though. Keep an eye on it after a few cycles. If you can check it when you take it off the heli after a flight that will highlight more than testing it after charging.

My battery tester does a balance routine and it does it just by burning the power off the high cells. You could try sticking one of those on it.

How many cycles does the battery have? Has it ever hit LVC ? Been over discharged?

/Steve

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by stevec

You could try bolting the blades together then get two glasses and use the bolt head and the shaft as the pivot. With the glasses holding the bolts up. ( this is sounding like those Chinese instructions doesn't it?) that is how I do it...

If the shakes stop after a certain throttle I'd say it is just a harmonic rather than something out of balance. If the blades were out of balance or out of track then the shakes don't go away.

Have you spooled it up and eyeballed it for tracking? If you are hovering then you can hover at eye level and eyeball it, or I find it easier if I'm flying on my own to set it at just under take off rpm/cyclic and kneel down a good way back and get to he same level as the rotor head.

The problem with hovering it is sometimes it is hard to tell which blade is high due to the light hitting the blades in the hover. So it is easier to do if you with a mate to look at it while you fly it.

As for the lipo 0.2 v isn't the end of the world it seems odd that the charger times out trying to balance it out though. Keep an eye on it after a few cycles. If you can check it when you take it off the heli after a flight that will highlight more than testing it after charging.

My battery tester does a balance routine and it does it just by burning the power off the high cells. You could try sticking one of those on it.

How many cycles does the battery have? Has it ever hit LVC ? Been over discharged?

/Steve

Well, thank you very much there. The balance gizmo showed up so I'm going to take the coward's way out.

I've not checked tracking yet as it apparently needs a degree of positive pitch to be dialed in and you're right - it's hard to see. As to getting a mate to eyeball it I don't have any friends that I hate that much. My building is well ahead of my flying and I tend to do these things in isolation - much like the unabomber if you're familiar with that reference.

What I have discovered thus far:
The Nano is more stable than the coax, the Blade 100-something is more stable than the Nano, all three are more stable than the sim.

This should, perforce, lead to the conclusion that the 600 is easier to fly than any of them but I've been hesitant to put that to the test.

But, since I like building, I am now the proud (chagrined?) owner of a Logo 800 "barebones" and am cheerfully applying sundry parts to it with the intent that it make it off the ground some time before I retire four years from now. Or at least some time in the decade following or before the electronics are offered as a "gimme" at a car wash, whichever comes first.

And, despite my vociferous protestations in other threads, I've somehow decided "3D" is a worthy goal. This had something to do with Kyle Dahl and an 800 in a Youtube video but, to be honest and not to denigrate the mad skillZ involved, it had more to do with the background music than anything else.

Somehow, 3D in a "normal" sized heli - right after lift-off still looks, to me, like a massive malfunction mitigated only by the lack of auguring into the ground. The Dahl thing (with the music) actually looked like something I could appreciate.

...

but

I don't see me leaving the noobie sub-forum anytime soon.

And. like the Bartles and James folks used to say "We thank you for your support".

oooh - almost forgot - all my lipos have seen zero cycles other than the ones that caught on fire in the Nano. The others have seen one charge followed by one "storage" thing. So why am I getting involved in a 14S thing when my flying skills remain unformed? Insanity, for lack of a better descriptor.

[stevec]

logo 800? nothing like going into the deep end!



/Steve

[Hawk404]

Deep end is right.

Since I started this thing ranting about manuals I should perhaps note that the Mikado manual is apparently translated from German rather than Mandarin or Cantonese. It is blessedly bereft of the "watermarks" that afflict the Align manuals. In retrospect I can't fathom why Align would plaster the word "ALIGN" across manual pages. It's not like the contents are a state secret. Since the obfuscating markings have no inhibiting properties insofar as their competition is concerned I'm left thinking they're intended merely to annoy their customers.

But I digress.

The Mikado manual is printed on what I presume is the European equivalent of "D" sized architectural paper - it's friggin' huge. I don't know if all Mikado manuals are like this or if this particular one was simply scaled to the helicopter.

When the manual is placed on a table with the parts it has the eerie side effect of making the parts appear to be normal size while making the table appear smaller than one remembers. This effect also applies to the builder who suddenly feels himself to be 2 feet tall sitting at a toy table with miniature chairs. This, in turn, may lead to the appearance of a white rabbit bearing a pocket watch that disappears down a hole in the floor that had gone unnoticed until the Mikado was unwrapped.

Other than a queasy, gut-wrenching, vertigo-inducing, feeling of having shrunk I have no complaints about this manual. Apart from possibly storage concerns.

As far as actual assembly I've done nothing other than stare at it until my forehead bled.

[stevec]

Perhaps if you lay out the sheets face down, the back of the manual is a half scale blueprint for the bunker you need to assemble to charge the batteries in!

Seriously though I bet it will fly absolutely beautifully though.
You won't need Kyle levels of head speed so you will get some nice flight times and bigger definitely flies better.

Keep an eye on the tail ratios if you are going to run lower head speeds though. I don't know anything about the xxtreme but if it is designed for manic head speed then you may need to adjust the speed of the tail rotation to keep tail authority.

I have a big fat raptor 90 gasser and the thing is rock solid it isn't fast or nutty but it will hover hands off in a 15 mph wind.

As you went barebones you can grow the servo spec with your abilities so it doesn't need to be uber expensive. I think we need some photos. Particularly showing the hobbit sized hands holding the main blade holders or the main gear...

I am jealous I could never afford the charging equipment let alone the heli itself.

Keep us posted.
/Steve