START HERE |
|
Register | FAQ | PM | Events | Groups | Blogs | Calendar | Mark Forums Read |
Unregistered
|
Kontronik Drives Jazz and Jive ESC's and other Kontronik equipment support |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
01-28-2014, 10:23 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
|
Quote:
Quote from my Kosmik sticky. 2. Ri Comp. There is no simple answer to this and I will try to explain in terms that will help and not go in to much detail as it will give away information about how our governor works as it is information that is deep in our programming. What it does it match the Kosmiks output to match that of the motor Ri (internal resistance). It gives the Kosmik some forward feed or a better description would be to make the governor function more proactive than reactive. The Kosmik actually knows what is going on by seeing the information live from the logging such as battery current, motor power, throttle position etc so it not only sees the throttle position it can determine how hard the model is being pushed but it can not take into account items such as the models weight and the drag on the model.
__________________
The difference between knowing your s**t and knowing you're s**t! Optipower - Kontronik Drives
|
|
Sponsored Links | |||
Advertisement |
|
01-28-2014, 10:46 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: US
|
Quote:
What I've found is that people who prefer an external governor over Kontroniks built in governor don't actually care if the headspeed is perfectly smooth. What they are looking for is to goose the motor when they give it hard collective input which they like the feel of even though it results in overrevving the motor a bit. That requires knowing what the pilot is doing, but is not being done in the name of keeping a constant headspeed. Personally I like the simplicity of leaving it up to the Kontronik governor. I get a perfect spin up and solid headspeeds with no tweaking required. The secret sauce is very good!
__________________
Mark Dusty Shelf queens: TDR2, TDR, Protos Max, Logo 550SX, Protos 500, Jeti DS-16, etc.... |
|
01-28-2014, 11:28 PM | #43 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Are the new Jive Pro's going to be the same physical size as the current line? Is another 100 coming as well or just 80 and 120?
__________________
CN#139 GOBLIN 500- HeliJive 120, Pyro 600-12, BK Servo GOBLIN BLACK NITRO YS 96 SRX Tareq, Torq, BK |
01-29-2014, 02:14 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
Obviously it isnt comparative but in high tech motion systems 99% of the generated forces are determined by feedforward. The feedback is there mostly for disturbance rejection and to cope with changes in plant properties. But it is clear that feedforward is very important in motion systems. So I really do think that a feedback based governor can always benefit from feedforward. And most of you guys seem to compare it to the vbar governor which isnt all that good to begin with. The vbar seems to have a lot of lag in the feedback loop. The brain governor is a lot better in that respect but it lacks a bit in other places. So the best of both worlds still is feedforward to the esc's governor. And as mkovalscon mentioned people have different expectations from their governor. For me I would want it to be a minimum rpm kind of thing, overspeeding (to some extent) isnt a problem but bogging shouldnt happen.
__________________
GAUI X5 with Eznov Neuron and T10J |
|
01-29-2014, 04:58 AM | #45 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
That's really amazing.. All have faith, but why not thinking about?
Thinking.., thinking about the involved timing. How fast can a control loop (rpm) react without bad side effects on tail - and at least with FBL on the other two axis too? Not very fast (->counter-torque). Slow rising pwm in case rpm drops, fast dropping pwm in case of overspeed. That's btw the "secret" of Kontronik's speed control algorithm: It is an asymmetrical one, different PI for both modes of control. And now the 2nd question: What amount of time in advance do we have for the legendary feed forward? Marginal compared to the time we have to take for the resulting action, rising pwm. There can be not much positive effect - but there can be also negative one. The landing point for setup of a control loop (yes, also the Vbar Gov is a controller from it's basic nature) with feed forward is very small because at last you're feeding an additional deviation into the control loop. So many people saying: That kind of speed control is the best ever. Do they know, did they measure, or have they faith? I thought about (no art, it's my profession) and I experimented, measured (logged) on a motor test device. And so you hear me saying for the umpteenth times: That all has a fairytale character. No question! It is good for use on ESCs with not well-functioning speed control. ---- Is this the last time I write about this topic? I'm afraid not. Sorry, I'm doing this. Nobody likes it when his faith is called into question. No offense. I do not want to occur as smart alec. I just had to "suffer" when I read this repeated discussion.
__________________
Tom (j-log.eu) |
01-29-2014, 05:41 AM | #46 (permalink) | |||
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
My own experience, and logging, is in favor of the brain governor over te vbar and jive governor. so is it faith? or preference? and what is the goal? apparantly you say here Quote:
But how about being more aggressive on the pwm increase and improve tail performance with feedforward to the tail? or accept decreased tail performance for improved governor performance? Quote:
the sooner you start with pwm increase after stick input the less rpm drop there would be, which in my book would be a good thing. but apparently not everybody agrees.
__________________
GAUI X5 with Eznov Neuron and T10J |
|||
01-29-2014, 11:56 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: US
|
Quote:
The FBL controller gets a delayed speed reading from a sensor that is history saying where the motor was. Meanwhile the FBL controller receives the collective input from the reciever which is effectively the future. Now it needs to reconcile what PWM the motor will need based on where the motor was and where it will be once the servos respond to the collective input. The FBL controller has to calculate a number of things extremely well just to be remotely competitive with what Kontronik can do nearly instantaneously. There are a lot of downsides to external governed operation as well. increased complexity with more parts to fail, and more settings that need to be right for it to work well. I greatly prefer just setting my Flight Mode throttle values to get the headspeed I want and be done with it.
__________________
Mark Dusty Shelf queens: TDR2, TDR, Protos Max, Logo 550SX, Protos 500, Jeti DS-16, etc.... Last edited by mkovalcson; 01-29-2014 at 02:19 PM.. |
|
01-29-2014, 05:49 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Brand New Products from Kontronik
Quote:
+1
__________________
Team - "Self Interests" - Flying what I want to, simply because I enjoy it! |
|
01-30-2014, 01:51 AM | #49 (permalink) | ||
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also I would be surprised if the yge rpm output has more delay then the internally used signal and the clock speed of an fbl system is plenty fast to give negligible delay. Only problem is when the rpm signal is very noisy or the interpretation of the signal is poor, thats where the esc is a lot better. But I am not saying kontronik should go towards an external governor mode, they should accept feedforward input. Just have the vbar or brain put out a signal that is comprised of steering inputs so the esc really has instant knowledge of the load getting on the motor before the rpm actually drops. This would be a lot better then feedback only or the external governors. But untill then I will stick with my perfectly working easy to setup yge with brain governor
__________________
GAUI X5 with Eznov Neuron and T10J |
||
01-30-2014, 09:27 AM | #50 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Sorry, Danny, my response will be delayed. I'm busy right now.
__________________
Tom (j-log.eu) |
01-30-2014, 09:33 AM | #51 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
no problem, you can also pm me anytime, no pressure. and I will leave this thread about the new kontronik products. was just wondering why they arent going a step further in what seems logical to me.
__________________
GAUI X5 with Eznov Neuron and T10J |
02-03-2014, 06:20 PM | #52 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Brand New Products from Kontronik
Looking forward to your next contribution to this thread, Tom.
__________________
Team - "Self Interests" - Flying what I want to, simply because I enjoy it! |
02-03-2014, 08:33 PM | #53 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Sep 2011
|
helidirect has the 120pro listed
but all sold out who else has them?
__________________
what goes up must come down... |
02-03-2014, 10:09 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Join Date: Sep 2011
|
Brand New Products from Kontronik
Quote:
Kontronik in Germany said that they'd only be available in June 2014. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory. Gaui NX7 BD-3SX, SAB Goblin 700C BD-3SX, JR Forza 700 BD-3SX |
|
02-04-2014, 12:59 AM | #55 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
|
I'm sure they are just in helidirects system but out of stock means no stock yet. Prob just an easy way of keeping up with new products early and showing you will carry them.
As above the release date is scheduled for 2nd quarter of 2014
__________________
Richard Zappe Team Kontronik USA PeakAircraft |
02-04-2014, 02:59 AM | #56 (permalink) |
Registered Users
|
Local shop also shows them on their website, no stock and for FREE!
http://www.goblinhobbies.co.za/s-eed...kontronik.html
__________________
Henseleit TDR, TDR2, TDF, TDS, TDSF Kontronik, Scorpion ESC, iChargers, VBar, VControl Old hand at Planks Peter |
02-04-2014, 09:16 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
|
Quote:
Alright Vinger. I'll take two of each, can't beat that price even if with shipping from South Africa.
__________________
|
|
02-04-2014, 09:18 AM | #58 (permalink) |
Registered Users
|
Seriously though glad they aren't charging an arm and leg extra for the next evo of the Jive.
Guessing they will discontinue the Power and HeliJive lines then if this is an all in one?
__________________
|
02-04-2014, 02:49 PM | #59 (permalink) |
Registered Users
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Other than re-using the Jive form factor these seem more like baby-Kosmiks to me based on the feature set.
In fact, unless you can make a compelling case for needed a 160A controller I see no reason to buy a Kosmik once these come out as the higher current capacity would be the only remaining major discriminator. That being said I'm really happy with my helijives and likely won't try one of these out unless I get a super deal on it.
__________________
Lean not on your own understanding. Goblin 500 |
02-04-2014, 03:04 PM | #60 (permalink) | |
Registered Users
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2011
|
Quote:
__________________
Richard Zappe Team Kontronik USA PeakAircraft |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|