Phasing question

[v58fuy]

When I started to read this post everybody was saying there is no inherent phasing issue with T-rex 500 - so I wasn't going to contribute.

But for the record all Align heli's I've had, have had a phasing issue (not interaction) which shows up most in big loops in particular.

When I first flew my T-rex 500 it clearly had a phase issue - but after time your brain will automatically correct it in the air, to the point where you will swear blind that it doesn't have an issue.

When I fly the rex and my Vibe 50 back to back, that's when it shows up.

David

[lex7919]

Originally Posted by hawkins221

hey lex fellow stiff uper lip brit whats up!
well did fly today but because i have not flown for 3 or 4weeks i had to regain my cool in the air.and the wind picked up too, ggggrrrrr it was very different. tic tocs are better now but piroflips kinda where all over the place?!?!?! i kinda think i need to get my cool back and my collective managment again, i am gonna keep doing these test's
i also have a logo500 hanging on the wall with a 910kv motor 2x4s 3600mah so 8s waiting for parts(kontronik 80-hv, spartan gyro, tail servo bls something) with flybar i know theflybarless thing is all big now and all must have one but i am learning kinda old school really wanna be able to control it perfectly flybarless takes this away a bit. anyhow hoping that my logo will kick but and not have to many prob's with the phasing, was really nice to get back in the air again,i will be moving some time in jan to an place where there is looooooots of space to fly hell yeh.anybody doing some testing yet with the phasing? save bob from explaining him self to death(many thanks for all the help bob)thumbs up!

Hey hows it going bud
glad your getting back in the air and flying again man i go nus if i dont fly for a week! 3-4 thats a bloody marathon! yep pitch controll my friend is where its at with piro flips! as im finding out too.
Logo awesome, thankfully at last someone who see's it the way i do too, just want to know im flying the heli and its my stick controll doing the good stuff and not the little black box of tricks on board! gotta respect that

[lex7919]

Originally Posted by v58fuy

When I started to read this post everybody was saying there is no inherent phasing issue with T-rex 500 - so I wasn't going to contribute.

But for the record all Align heli's I've had, have had a phasing issue (not interaction) which shows up most in big loops in particular.

When I first flew my T-rex 500 it clearly had a phase issue - but after time your brain will automatically correct it in the air, to the point where you will swear blind that it doesn't have an issue.

When I fly the rex and my Vibe 50 back to back, that's when it shows up.

David

thats exactly my issue to just started big loops with the funky little piro's and flips etc at the top coming out in a different orientation to that i went into the loop with and its pulling hard! to one side but the set up is perfect in every respect so phasing is all i can think of as a reason this happens. will be watching the post carefully.

[hawkins221]

well i have been thinking about how my500 flys.
and i now that when i do aile tictoc the nose dipps down tail up therefor my aile tictocs are hard to keep going, same with normaal tictocs my heli always and i mean always drifts to the left unless the wind is strong from the left side then thay kick butt!.
i,m kinda at the same stage you are alex coming out of tail slides doing small slow flips and the odd piroflip after not flying for three weeks my skills are almost gone, really sucks, i had some good progress going untill my last crash.
pic of my bent 500 sniff sniff.
pic of me inverted cutting the grass
pic of the dark side of the force!!!!!
decepticons rule!!!

[lex7919]

Originally Posted by hawkins221

well i have been thinking about how my500 flys.
and i now that when i do aile tictoc the nose dipps down tail up therefor my aile tictocs are hard to keep going, same with normaal tictocs my heli always and i mean always drifts to the left unless the wind is strong from the left side then thay kick butt!.
i,m kinda at the same stage you are alex coming out of tail slides doing small slow flips and the odd piroflip after not flying for three weeks my skills are almost gone, really sucks, i had some good progress going untill my last crash.
pic of my bent 500 sniff sniff.
pic of me inverted cutting the grass
pic of the dark side of the force!!!!!
decepticons rule!!!

i get the left drift in normal tic tocs but ailerons are fine i can walk it back stop it and walk it back the other way and it does that without any going off or dipping, Hmmm now i wondering can the phasing be out and effect one thing and not another?
I Really need to bench it and make sure 100% all interactions are dialed out every thing is ok and then hit the field to test.

Anyhows judging from that Tatto you will be at the front of the que for the new JR11 zero thingy mebob radio then lol

[lankey]

Nah, those Japanese Radio dudes have been watching too much Battlestar Galactica Alex... subtitled of course!

Sorry to see your bent up Rex David. Hope she's back up soon

.... and what is a Brit doing in Amsterdam?.... saucy!

[hawkins221]

wellllll long story man, ends up with me getting the heli virus!
i will be moving in jan where i can fly my socks off without smoking. hihihihi
been over here for 18years or so,sniff sniff miss the foooooooddddd please send over a bag of salt and viniger crisps!!!!! or prawn cocktail please!!!
hahahahaha.i run a shop in the redlight district,mh mh that yes,

[BobOD]

Interesting thread indeed. I built in a phasing adjustment on the I2 500 flybarred rotor just so I could mess around with it. Note in the pics that at 0 degree setting, the flybar lines up with the swash ball and main shaft. In the next pic, note that the flybar is advanced about 3 degrees.
I had not quite decided if I was going to keep the feature or not as I've been trying to determine its value. I'm a lousy pilot though so probably should ignore my conclusions. From looking through this thread, it looks like it's a keeper.

[lex7919]

shameless

[BobOD]

Originally Posted by lex7919

shameless

[BobOD]

BTW, so far, the gyroscopic precession angle between the swash and rotor system is being considered.
What about between flybar and rotor disk?

[povern]

Originally Posted by Finless

OK I had forgot I shot this video and uploaded it but never came back here and posted it.

This video shows how to see the phasing in the T500 and that it has some. Also I checked my brand new 500 ESP that was used for the nitro conversion and it too has the same phasing.

So double check yours! If you have none then I suspect there are elbow arms out there that are different and maybe Align made a change somewhere. But which is the latest?

Here is the video.

http://video.helifreak.com/?subpath=...500phasing.wmv


Bob

OK, anyone know how to check phasing on the bench on a FBL heli?

povern

[lex7919]

Originally Posted by BobOD

yeah! but i like it

[BobOD]

Originally Posted by povern

OK, anyone know how to check phasing on the bench on a FBL heli?

povern

The phasing on an FBL setup might as well be zero and isn't so important IMO. The FBL gyro should have no difficulty compensating for any precession that's going on. As long as the sensor is mounted accurately, rolls are rolls and flips are flips with little interaction.

Regarding the standard flybarred 500 setup, I'm still wondering what the ultimate phase angle should be. The observation that some Align heads have about 2 degrees isn't very convincing to me...especially since some have reported the phasing to be advanced, some report 0 degrees, and some report retarded (I have one that is retarded and one zero). It seems the assumption that this phasing angle is purposeful by Align is...well...just that...an assumption. Seems more like normal manufacturing error to me but that's just a guess.
Also, since it seems to be dependant on other factors (head speed, blades used, paddles used...to name a few) I'm starting to think adjustable is the way to go...just like the higher end "big boys".

[hawkins221]

ok guys did some testing today, it was very windy so i did take it easy.
i have mixed 7% the aile master to elev slave and did notice how much easyer it is to fly backwards doing tic tocs on the aile i don,t have to compensate so much.next thing wil be the way it comes out of a tail slide and hard flip. i am always compensating to the left as i go in to the flip. and my heli mostly comes out to one side.
my balls seemed to have returned a bit this time. was doing some nice four point rolls foward,backwards kinda went wrong, but did not crash hehhe.
i have also dropped my expo to like 15% on the cyclic and 70%in the swash menu and it did seem to fly nice and tight. much better and less binding.
also my box like fling style was coming back to me finally.
so i am pleased to inform all(the reaper is back!)
bob you getting anywhere with the phasing on your 500 yet?

[Finless]

None yet. BTW I am not working with this on my 500. I am doing it on my 450 Pro which appears to have either a slow servo under load or a phasing issue. Later I will do this on my 500 but remember, unlike some of you, my 500 has built in phasing.

Bob

[hawkins221]

Ok back to my settings. Well got to fly like few days ago with the 425d blades cyclic is much much better than the maniac blades. I did like the maniac,s just bad cyclic. Anyhow did some mixing aswell and can say that my aile tictocs are amazing now!. In the mix menu i did, aile master elev slave about 7% both sides so that when i tictoc the tail stays strait and it did so very nicely,did say 15 to 20 aile tictocs no problem without really having to correct anything!. Did some backwards flying with aile tictocs and felt so much better.

[JAG1]

Originally Posted by Finless

Just last weekend me and a guy started playing with this on the 450 Pro.
My flips both front and back were fine but where I saw an issue was slow tic tocs. It looked like a tail hold issue as first tic to a toc the tail moved about 20 degrees left. WTF I though! Kept messing with the tail. Nada zippo... Then I realized I was correcting cyclic for side to side and this was causing the heli to rotate like it was a tail hold issue.
Again flips (fast) where fine.

Then we started doing big power loops and NOT correcting for roll off which I just naturally do and he did too. We both found that coming out of the backside of the loop the tail was off about 10-15 degrees. YEP phasing for sure! The Beam heli does this a lot back when i was testing it and so did the Diablo with the top flybar system.

OK he had a DX7 and I have a X9303. On the DX7 you cannot set up a mix that allows you to do a curve (like a pitch curve kind of thing). The X9303 does.
Initial playing around starting with elevator to aileron mix I put in a linear 20% mix. Meaning the mix starts out small but at full elevator aileron was getting 20%.
This worked great on tick tocs and big loops but was BAD on fast flips (almost full elevator)!
Because the X9303 allows you to set mix points like a curve, I put in 10% for the first point and took back out all the mix for full travel... MUCH better but not perfect yet.

Anyway I am going to do some more work on this and see what I can come up with and explain it all in a video. You DX7 people might not be able to do this properly as it doesn't have a mix curve, it's just on with a linear mix BUT you still might be able to do something. I dunno until I figure it out on my X9303 first, then I will see what we can get on a DX7.

In the end all this pissed me off... I was always correcting my flying and not worrying about this stuff. Then my friend who has a flybarless Logo500 stated complaining about his 450 and some of the weirdness it was doing in some maneuvers compared to his flybarless logo. That got us both starting to really look at this phasing on 450's and what we both had been correcting for in flight. NOW that I am seeing it... It is pissing me off enough to learn to use our computer radios to make it fly better! Not that it doesnt fly good now but as I said I am noticing some things that with mixes we might be able to make better!

Stay tuned! More to come for sure.

Bob

Hey bob,
any update on this issue with Phasing?

cheers

[hawkins221]

Originally Posted by JAG1

Hey bob,
any update on this issue with Phasing?

cheers

yeh bob where you at?

[JAG1]

hi,anyone know what menu on my futaba 7c i need to go into to have a go at this phasing thingy??


cheers