Bye bye Lipos

[Cryofix]

Well I cant say for sure I will not use lipos again in certain applications but... on my logo I will not use any other battery but my A123 cells.

Just due a price point; recently I decided the try the A123 cells, found a vendor on ebay where I got 3 dewalt packs for $75 each with $10 shipping(Lucky!) out of each pack I get a 10S pack 33.3 volts 2300 mAh at 30C bursts, comparable, and sustainable to a 6S lipo equivalent in terms of load and maw wattage under load. I did a side by side analysis of my FP 4900 and my 10S A123 and the A123 is a little bit larger, but weighs less.

Logo 10 Deluxe 2006, almost hit 8 minutes of flight time with no 3d just some standard and aggressive FF.

Logo 10 Deluxe with askman mount complete no camera I just hit six minutes fifty four seconds tonight with hover and pitch pumps.

Just recently sold my 1010C to finance a new E-station 902, ordered it from rcaccessory.com for $269.00. It arrived today and I had to test it out on my new Iota 55 power supply to see what kind of charge times I can get from it and I almost fell on the floor. had 3 full packs, so I took the logo out and flew off 1 pack, pulled the battery out at 104 degrees, plugged it into the charger, set the charger for Li-Fe 9.9 amps 33.3(10s) and hit start. 10 Minutes into the charge the battery temp rose only 2 degrees, then dropped 4 degrees by the end of the charge cycle which was only 21 Minutes! from dead empty to fully peak charged 21 minutes.

My E-station 902 is also making this soo much nicer, for that big price tag of $269 I got a usb cable and windows graphing software that allows you to monitor and store all your charge info including , watts, voltage, mAh, temperature(from the supplied temp meter), time of charge, input voltage, and a few other things. Ontop of all of this if I purchase 2 of there 6 cell balancers I can balance up to 12S and have every single cell voltage individually displayed on the screen.

with technology like this it makes it easy to cut over, and much harder to look back. As a non insane 3d pilot these batteries fit the bill perfect and leave some bills left over for more stuff.

[AZ ChopperCam]

you're going to LOVE that Iota 55! I have one and I've run it full bore at about 45amps and it barely got warm. a bit spendy but they kick a$$!

[dreslism]

Good info Cryo.

I was looking at the E-station 902 also today. It is a bit pricier than my 1010, but it charges more than just lipo so I could sell my tritan and come out OK.

Did you tap your A123's? They have their own tap for the 902 right?

One thing I asked ( I think it was Ethan from rcaccessory) is if you can upgrade the firmware on the charger with the usb. He said no, it had to be done at the factory.

I was not too happy about hearing that, and that feature will most likely stop me from getting one for now. If they change that so it is user upgradeable, then I may get one.

Thanks for the good info.

[spork]

That sounds pretty darn good. Seems like 4S would make a nice pack for the T-Rex 450. Do you know if it would fit? How much did your 10S pack weigh?

Thanks.

[Cryofix]

10S with taps and leads is 723 Grams. and people do use 4s packs with trexs, not sure on the config. I am going to look into it.

Scott: I did tap them with tp taps, but the balancers are made to order I "think" I just checked the site and it gives you a drop down menu for the tap type you want the balancer for.

As far as upgrading the system just make sure you get V3 right off the bat, that has the Li-Fe charge, Also I think I read somewhere that you can send the charger into the factory and they will do the update for free, this obviously is not optimal but it saves you from having to buy a $30 cable to do your own upgrades.

[spork]

Originally Posted by Cryofix

10S with taps and leads is 723 Grams.

Ouch! That would put a 4S pack at 290 grams - twice the weight of a Pro-Lite 2100. Hmmmm??? Not sure if it's worth it.

and people do use 4s packs with trexs, not sure on the config. I am going to look into it.

Thanks. I'd love to hear how they feel it works out.

[kgfly]

Spork, the M1 cells weigh 70g each and are 66x26mm cylindrical cells so unfortunately, a 4S is too big and too heavy for a T450. I think you need at least a 500-class size heli like an EP8 before the weight/size tradeoff starts to work in our favour. I'm certainly interested in seeing whether a T500+M1-4S2300 will make sense or not.

[kgfly]

There was a guy on rcg (I think) that slung the A123 Racing pack under his TRex and got impressive results.

[spork]

Originally Posted by kgfly

...unfortunately, a 4S is too big and too heavy for a T450.

DOH! I keep hoping. Well, as soon as I buy another LiPo pack they're sure to come out with some kind of perpetual motion 45C pack that weighs 35 grams.

[dreslism]

Originally Posted by spork

DOH! I keep hoping. Well, as soon as I buy another LiPo pack they're sure to come out with some kind of perpetual motion 45C pack that weighs 35 grams.

Well then Rick for the benefit of the rest of us, by all means, please go buy another lipo pack... :wink:

[spork]

Originally Posted by dreslism

Well then Rick for the benefit of the rest of us, by all means, please go buy another lipo pack... :wink:

No worries. Everyone just send me one dollar. :mrgreen:

[askman]

gary is running 4S a123 on his trex. pretty good performance but heavy

[spork]

Originally Posted by askman

gary is running 4S a123 on his trex. pretty good performance but heavy

Who's Gary? Any pics of his setup?

Thanks.

[kgfly]

That is interesting. I am guessing he uses it for AP not sport flying or 3D.

It would be nice to hear from Gary about his experiences with A123/M1 on a TRex. What configuration is the pack, how is it mounted, does he bother with taps/balancing, what motor/pinion/blades for what flight duration. Maybe he could start a thread on the topic and post a link here ?

A rectangular 4S1P2300 A123/M1 pack is about 140x28x58mm and ~300g.

Comparable 3S1P2200 LiPo packs are about 105x24x36 and 180g
Comparable 3S1P2500 LiPo packs are about 127x20x39 and 209g
Comparable 3S1P3300 LiPo packs are about 146x20x48 and 280g

So clearly the A123 pack is long, tall, wide and heavy. I am not sure it would be safe on the upper, sloping tray of a TRex450 CF frame and is too wide to slide back in the lower tray so I imagine that a sturdy tray extension would be needed. Of course it will be more robust, safer (almost no fire risk), can be charged faster and will be cheaper than the leading high performance lipo packs, but maybe not much cheaper than the budget 15C or 20C packs.

For AP, assuming a standard TRex AUW of ~700g with 3S2200 lipo and a payload of ~400g the trade off is either 25% less payload or ~20% shorter flights.

[RC Accessory]

Originally Posted by dreslism

Good info Cryo.

I was looking at the E-station 902 also today. It is a bit pricier than my 1010, but it charges more than just lipo so I could sell my tritan and come out OK.

Did you tap your A123's? They have their own tap for the 902 right?

One thing I asked ( I think it was Ethan from rcaccessory) is if you can upgrade the firmware on the charger with the usb. He said no, it had to be done at the factory.

I was not too happy about hearing that, and that feature will most likely stop me from getting one for now. If they change that so it is user upgradeable, then I may get one.

Thanks for the good info.

Scott,

Don't look at sending the unit back to the factory for an update as a negative, it really isn't. Few chargers on the mark allow users to do their own update.

What I do for e-Station owners is that I collect their chargers and send them back to Korea in 1 package. Shipping 1 unit EMS is about $35, this way it is about 1/2. Complete turnaround time is about 2 weeks back to you.

Most companies even here in the US take about that much time and the shipping is roughly the same. I would much rather have the factory work on my charger that the distibutor somewhere here in the US.

All the e-Station chargers in stock are the latest revisions. Quite simply, these chargers just rock. They work well, overall simple to use for a fully featured charger and for the capabilities the price is very very competitve with other high end chargers with less features.

Please let me know if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help you.

Evan Chapkis
RC Accessory
Auth Bantam US Importer
evan_chapkis@rcaccessory.com

[dreslism]

Originally Posted by RC Accessory

Scott,

Don't look at sending the unit back to the factory for an update as a negative, it really isn't. Few chargers on the mark allow users to do their own update.

What I do for e-Station owners is that I collect their chargers and send them back to Korea in 1 package. Shipping 1 unit EMS is about $35, this way it is about 1/2. Complete turnaround time is about 2 weeks back to you.

Most companies even here in the US take about that much time and the shipping is roughly the same. I would much rather have the factory work on my charger that the distibutor somewhere here in the US.

All the e-Station chargers in stock are the latest revisions. Quite simply, these chargers just rock. They work well, overall simple to use for a fully featured charger and for the capabilities the price is very very competitve with other high end chargers with less features.

Please let me know if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help you.

Evan Chapkis
RC Accessory
Auth Bantam US Importer
evan_chapkis@rcaccessory.com

Sorry about the name goof up Evan, I was at work and did not have acces to my email, so it came out as Ethan.

I'm not knocking the product, I was just stating for me personally in my situation, there is not any time during the year, winter, spring, summer, or fall, that I would give up my charger for 2 weeks straight.

This is just me, my personal situation, as I already have a 1010 which does great for lipos, they are adding a123 support, and I'll update the firmware myself when they have the support this month.

I just could not do without it for 2 weeks. I understand the 902's have the latest firmware, but things change in battery technology and so forth. When I bought my 1010 there was just talk about the a123's now they are finally a reality.

If my charger died today, I would order a new one in a second via 2 day shipping, and worry about warranting the old one later and just sell it after that whole deal is straightened out.

Again, this is just me, so this is why I was saying the upgrade thing is kinda a deal breaker to me.

I know others like me also.

Maybe you could pass this info back to the manufacturer. Perhaps they would add usb firmware updating in the future, and I would have no reason not to buy their charger then.

Again, thanks for the dialog and feedback. It is support and feedback from the distributor/manufacturer that can make or break a product. i.e. look at the ap2000i. Can't keep those things in stock as they made a great product and provide direct feedback to customers here, and listen and implement requested features.

Those things sell themselves now.

So, my request for the 902 is user upgradeable firmware. They already have a usb connection to a pc, so I know they can do it. :mrgreen:

Thanks,

[WillJames]

I too could not deal without my chargers for any time like 2 weeks. That is a deal breaker for me too. I now have 4 of the 1010/210V combos and like you, if I need one replaced, TP had done it very quick, or I would buy another one.

Schulze chargers are good to, I have 4 of them, I just had to replace a 636 so I can send it back to be fixed. Can't do without it that long.

[GGoodrum]

Originally Posted by kgfly

That is interesting. I am guessing he uses it for AP not sport flying or 3D.

It would be nice to hear from Gary about his experiences with A123/M1 on a TRex. What configuration is the pack, how is it mounted, does he bother with taps/balancing, what motor/pinion/blades for what flight duration. Maybe he could start a thread on the topic and post a link here ?

A rectangular 4S1P2300 A123/M1 pack is about 140x28x58mm and ~300g.

Comparable 3S1P2200 LiPo packs are about 105x24x36 and 180g
Comparable 3S1P2500 LiPo packs are about 127x20x39 and 209g
Comparable 3S1P3300 LiPo packs are about 146x20x48 and 280g

So clearly the A123 pack is long, tall, wide and heavy. I am not sure it would be safe on the upper, sloping tray of a TRex450 CF frame and is too wide to slide back in the lower tray so I imagine that a sturdy tray extension would be needed. Of course it will be more robust, safer (almost no fire risk), can be charged faster and will be cheaper than the leading high performance lipo packs, but maybe not much cheaper than the budget 15C or 20C packs.

For AP, assuming a standard TRex AUW of ~700g with 3S2200 lipo and a payload of ~400g the trade off is either 25% less payload or ~20% shorter flights.

Yes, I am using a 4s pack in my TRex 450SE. Here's what it looks like:








It is not too heavy, and it CGs perfectly, just as you see it. I'm using it with a Z-Power Z10A-3300 (a "new core" version of the 450...) and a 13T pinion. The 100% h/s is around 3000 and the power is awesome! Definitely better than any 3s-2100 setup I've run. I plan on running the same setup in a Mini-Titan, when they come ut this month.

-- Gary

[spork]

Gary, thanks a bunch for that info. It looks great. What kind of flight times are you getting?

And at the risk of asking a dumb question.... what's the simplest charging solution for a pack like that?

[GGoodrum]

I think I can actually get close to 10 minutes of hard 3D.

For charging, I use a TME Extrema. The latest version has the ability to select what voltage per cell you want to charge at, in increments of .05V. I set it to 3.65V for a123 cells. With this you can charge a 4-cell a123 pack at an 8A rate in about 20 minutes.

Thunder Power should have a software update soon for their TP-1010C charger to add an a123 charging option, and the German Orbit and Schulze chargers recently added a123 modes in new updates to their chargers as well. Finally, there is the Bantam e-Station 902 charger that also has an a123 option. I think with it you can charge a 4-cell at a full 10A rate, which means about 15 minutes for a full charge.

-- Gary