Almost ready Protos 500 - setting up the tail

[HarryR]

I built up a nice Protos 500 with OEM motor, YEP 90A ESC and Align DS515 and DS650 (tail) steered with an AR7200BX.
Did the mechanical set up and the AR7200BX and got all blue lights.
I still need to set up the Yep 90A which I hope will happen in the next few days as I am hunting for the user manual or instructions which were not in the package when I received it from the International warehouse.
In the AR7200BX setup I used all the typical settings but I still have a soft tail wag. I did try at least 30 Gyro settings . All the way from -10 ( Rate mode) to +70 (Heading Mode) and although the heli flies,the tail is all over the place. I am talking 45 degrees in 1-2 seconds that I can steer back using the rudder stick but it does not sound as if the gyro is controlling the tail at all. In the set up I am using 270 or 333 HZ for the Align DS650 ( I tried both but the servo seems to run "warm / hotter in the 333 Hz setting so I dialled it back to 270 Hz" at least for now.
In the Parameter Set up Menu, I also made sure the TX is controlling, that I am in heading mode and that the tail is being compensation "normal" .
If the Gyro setting is around 20 or so the tail start moving from CCW to CW when I spool up and get the heli n the air for 10 seconds or so. It seems that this is this pivot point where the model is neutral and should stay and have a solid tail.. I just can not find it at the moment. Perhaps the DS650 need more authority from the AR7200 in the set up so I will be working in the Parameter setup menu to figure this one out.
As I have several other Protos 500 that are set up identically I must say that this one behaves differently in that the tail is not solid and it has a slow wag too. So this is checking and re-checking time.

[banditpowdercoat]

Same servo etc here. My DS650 is on the left side of boom tho, and tail sensor direction is reverse. No wag. just a kick on hard pitch moves I am dialing out. Your sure your tail os buttery smooth? What's Parameter D set at?

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

Same servo etc here. My DS650 is on the left side of boom tho, and tail sensor direction is reverse. No wag. just a kick on hard pitch moves I am dialing out. Your sure your tail os buttery smooth? What's Parameter D set at?

D is now set HIGH ( blue flashing I believe)

I did not get a chance of flying the Protos with the Align servo's yet. I am thinking something is wrong with the BeastX so I am going back over the set-up. I noticed that, no matter what I do with the Gyro setting in the TX ( having heading hold set in the AR7200), when I initialize the Heli, the LED that is supposed to give you a 10 second input as to what the Gyro setting is, keeps on giving me the letter A. Clearly that should not be the case if I change the the Gyro setting in the TX from -15 to + 70 or so during the tests. So I am trying to find out WHY that is happening ( perhaps that is how it is supposed to be). I flew some other Protos and they definitely show a different LED setting so I am wondering if this particular AR7200 has an issue.
As luck will have it.. today I received my NEW Turnigy 3D-H V2 from HobbyKing. I am contemplating setting that up on this particular Protos and see what I get.
On the subject of setting up the tail. During one of my flight yesterday, The Protos developed a tail wag. That is, about 2 minutes in the flight it started. I brought the heli down to have look, and sent it back up in a hover to check and monitor. The wag grew larger,I could see the change so I landed. Upon inspection later that day, I found that one of the tail blade holders was loose on its spindle and it clearly would have thrown that blade if I had not landed immediately. I tightened all the screws again and test flew.. Heli just "hung" in the air as solid as a wind vane in a stiff breeze. Mission accomplished.. One would NEVER think that would be the issue in a tail wag, but it can be as simple as that . Lesson, when the bird starts to wag it's tail... bring her own IMMEDIATELY for a check.

[dr dremel]

IIRC the Microbeast first shows you software version via LEDs and only after that the tail gain? Maybe this is the same for the AR7200?

[HarryR]

So I went through the complete set up of the heli one more time ( before I pull the AR7200BX off) and I believe there is no vibration coming from the heli as such , in fact when I spool up ( without blades) itis eerily quiet and motionless and that is how it is supposed to be. So I replaced the main blades and took the head apart and everything there seems to be tight and solid there. That leaves the tail and the AR7200BX. When spooling up, the tail is totally without vibrations too all the way from 0 - 100/max rev but I have not yet done anything with the ESC and that includes setting the Min - Max which I plan to do tonight. For the rest, the wag does not seem to care too much about the GYRO setting and any setting from about 10 - 70 results in the same slow frequency wag ( about 5-10 degrees in either direction) , just a little "deeper /more pronounced to perhaps 20 degrees in each direction when you get about 50%. Hence my suspicion that the AR7200 is the culprit. More to come.

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by dr dremel

IIRC the Microbeast first shows you software version via LEDs and only after that the tail gain? Maybe this is the same for the AR7200?

Interesting ... gonna check on that.

[adambowersva]

Did you setup Parameter menu B to transmitter? If not, the gyro settings more or less are handled by the BeastX to my knowledge. Not 100% on this, but thought I'd throw it out there as it's only a few seconds to check.

[banditpowdercoat]

Shouldn't your tx gain channel throws be -100 100? They are supposed to be that on the full BX. Make sure your are. You might not be getting much gyro channel change?


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by adambowersva

Did you setup Parameter menu B to transmitter? If not, the gyro settings more or less are handled by the BeastX to my knowledge. Not 100% on this, but thought I'd throw it out there as it's only a few seconds to check.

Yes. Parameter B is to TX. I also played with D and F and basically no difference..,

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by banditpowdercoat

Shouldn't your tx gain channel throws be -100 100? They are supposed to be that on the full BX. Make sure your are. You might not be getting much gyro channel change?


Sent from my iPhone while my Heli plays with the gophers

Pretty sure they are, also no sub trims , nor trims, linear T and P curve, the lot. Dan, but I will check. Ta!

[HarryR]

I replaced the tail blades with brand new , then made sure I ran a complete straight tail-servo-to-tail-rod and that there was no binding. Checked also each of the area' that could get to bind. 1/ the actual tail / blades/ blade holders/ , 2/ shaft/ collar/slider 3/ servo to tail rod and 4/ tail servo, including the links and the balls on each of the links. Could not find anything wrong or loose or too tight. The only thing that surprised me was the added force needed ( after connecting the tail rod to the tail servo) to manually move the servo all the way away from and towards the tail box. So now I am wondering is possibly the tail servo has an issue. It does move completely smooth back and forth when setting the end points. I did notice that during my pre-flight checks, the rudder stick does not move the tail slider all the way left to right but I think that is normal which the heli is not air born.
I also changed the sticky pad under the AR7200BX, that did not make a difference either. Then over to Parameter settings, played with D and F and tried all the settings in combination with the GYRO settings on the TX and I did not find anything there either.
Wag is present during hovering and FFF. More to come.. until it is solved!

[HarryR]

Started to look into the tail itself last night and noticed that unlike my other Protos models, this one got set up with trailing edge tail blades. So I swapped them around and it did make a difference in that the belt seems to be smoother and less mechanical (belt) noise in the tail area. I also set up the ESC complete with GOV STOR but none of that made much of a difference except that I now get a more defined slow wider wag in lower Gyro settings 25-35 and a faster tighter wag between 50-70 on the gyro. None of the Parameter D and F settings seem to make a whole lot of difference. At spool up when the heli is on the ground , there is to tail wag, the heli stands completely still, (no side to side movement during spool up) , lift off at 55 percent slowly and graciously and responsive. I am still looking at the AR7200BX as a possible issue just because it seems to be a little erratic and it seems to be having a mind of its own. For instance sometime changing the parameters seem to have more impact / change than others but I have not yet been able to figure out exactly where it might come from. As I am out of town for a week or so, I won't be able to work the issue but I am thinking that I want to change the AR7200 out for that Turnigy unit which is just waiting in it's pretty box.

[HarryR]

Ok so today I replaced the Tail shaft. No difference. Interestingly.. nothing is shaking, vibrating at any RPM or head speed. Considering now to change the main shaft but the blades are tracking nicely . I bought a Futaba S9257 so I might change the Align tail servo DS 650 out first.

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by adambowersva

Did you setup Parameter menu B to transmitter? If not, the gyro settings more or less are handled by the BeastX to my knowledge. Not 100% on this, but thought I'd throw it out there as it's only a few seconds to check.

Yep, to TX.

[HarryR]

Originally Posted by HarryR

Ok so today I replaced the Tail shaft. No difference. Interestingly.. nothing is shaking, vibrating at any RPM or head speed. Considering now to change the main shaft but the blades are tracking nicely . I bought a Futaba S9257 so I might change the Align tail servo DS 650 out first.

Changed my mind. I am going to swap out the tail rotor blades one more time. but as I said before. I do not see or feel any vibrations.. We will see.

[HarryR]

OK, so far I replaced the tail shaft, the tail blades (twice) and tonight I pulled and swapped the main shaft. No difference at all.
Amazing to see that changing the GYRO setting on my DX8 changed the FED light on the AR7200BX. That would indicate to me that the unit "sees" the correct setting. I tried GYRo settings from as low a 8% to 80% and the results did not change at all because of the changes I made. The point at which the slow wag ( low gyro setting) to fast wag ( too high gyro setting) did not change either. It is around 60%
I have ready to swap out now the Tail servo which is an Align DS 650 with a Futaba 9257 and I have a spare AR7200BX.
So question to the panel
WHICH ONE FIRST ? The Servo swap out or the AR7200BX swap out.
Anything else I should try before this surgery?

[alexf1852]

Do you use thrust bearings on the tail? If so, you should double check that they are assembled correctly. You might have binding under load.

[HarryR]

Just in case you spot something weird or potential problem

[mike d1]

In my experience wag is almost always caused by mechanical problems on the tail assembly, very rarely does it turn out to be the fbl unit. Now that being said how many flights do you have on this tail? Looks like quite a few by the amount of belt residue on the tail fin. I would suspect either binding on the tail slider and or the tail slider arm. Even though the slider and arm may slide butter smooth on the bench once you spin the tail rotor blades if they have excessive wear they will bind under load period. If it were my bird and I was going to replace those parts I would also replace the slider arm with the Lynx upgrade, its money well spent. The stock plastic arm can flex even when new causing wag.

Wag is a frustrating thing and a very hard thing to diagnose and fix on the bench if you don't have an obvious problem, good luck.

Mike

[adambowersva]

Another stab based on your belt position to the right and all the belt dust seemingly from friction...

Do you have the belt guide pulley (left side of frame between pinion and main shaft) installed?

Only mention as mine was not attached when I first received it (new to me) and I noticed the same rightward play from the belt. Once I located this small, but crucial part and put it on the rightward play of the belt went away and it stayed centered.

Obviously an easy check . If ya got it on there you are good there lol. If not...could be a part of your issue.

Also, sorry if I missed, but how tight is your belt in front of the main shaft AND at the pulleys entering boom?