Massive vibrations from Pyro motor ( finally got it ) -I +P +S

[Wynn1427]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

I just have the motor bolted to my Logo 550SX frame. It doesn't even have a pinion on it and is not driving anything..

I understand the logic here, but at this point why not test the vibration with all the rest of the drivetrain and pieces installed since thats what is going to be happening during flight?

Not sure what Align motor (short shaft conpared to pyro long shaft?). But image a shaft that isn't true/square/tolerance error spinning around. Extend the shaft down even further would create even more adverse effects or almost a wobble effect that can be seen as a vibration. Who knows could be the C.G. of main shaft between upper and lower bearings (if thats where they occur, haven't checked the dimensions) causes main shaft resonance. Have you checked it across a range of RPM's?

Wynn

[mkovalcson]

The response I got from my SK savvy friend is the following:

"I took a look and have seen a rash of these lately. Try different pwm timing rates and it should calm down. What are your current settings?

I first saw this while playing with new prototype 10 to 14 pole motors a few years ago, and documented them showing severe up/down vibes when the pwm timing rates are off due to magnetic resonance. It seems it is hitting all the brands using over 8 pole tech."

This might make sense since the Align 600MX is an 8 pole motor and the Pyro 650 is a 10 pole motor.

So my question is this. How can I adjust the timing of a Jive 100LV or do I need a firmware upgrade?

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

The response I got from my SK savvy friend is the following:

"I took a look and have seen a rash of these lately. Try different pwm timing rates and it should calm down. What are your current settings?

I first saw this while playing with new prototype 10 to 14 pole motors a few years ago, and documented them showing severe up/down vibes when the pwm timing rates are off due to magnetic resonance. It seems it is hitting all the brands using over 8 pole tech."

This might make sense since the Align 600MX is an 8 pole motor and the Pyro 650 is a 10 pole motor.

So my question is this. How can I adjust the timing of a Jive 100LV or do I need a firmware upgrade?

hes not talking about the timing hes referring to the command frequency of the PWM pulses.

Run the motor up with no governor enabled and see if that makes it any better. may be a function of you not running it with any load on it.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

hes not talking about the timing hes referring to the command frequency of the PWM pulses.

Run the motor up with no governor enabled and see if that makes it any better. may be a function of you not running it with any load on it.

When I flew it last at 1900-2250 rpm it still had vibrations. In fact before I crashed the auto-level was dissabled because of vibrations.

I could try it in mode 1 and see what happens.

[mkovalcson]

OMG!!!!!!!! WE have a Winner!!!!

The governor is killing it!

In Mode 1 I ran it all the way up to 26,500 rpm and it was smooth as silk !!!!!!!

This is at 26,000 rpm and is as bad as it gets!!! Much much better!

BTW that is still almost 100% Up/Down vibration so it may still be off a smidge, but this is much better and I would have no problem flying with this once it is governed that is.

[helicraze]

So their own motor has issues with their esc?

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by helicraze

So their own motor has issues with their esc?

YUP and I repeatedly asked if I should send in my ESC when I shipped this back to Germany and kept being told that the ESC shouldn't have anything to do with it.

But my ESC works great if I'm happy flying ungoverned, NOT!!!!!


OK, now that I am vindicated ( ie. proven this is a REAL issue and not a product of soldering, FBL mounting, etc.. etc.. ) all I care about is getting a solution so I can enjoy my heli.

I've emailed Charles Anderson with my findings and I'm hoping Kontronik will make things right.

[Seasick78]

Just curious... Have you even tried flying this thing?

Does it fly well, or do you even know?

[mmarian]

I am not claiming to be an expert in this field but it just does not make any logical sense that a governor can cause such a high frquency vibration. Im still holding the view that a mechanical issue is the culprit. I've suggested the magnet dislodgement. Governor is able to hold the speed and maybe it holds the speed where the vibration gets into the resonance frequency of the motor and it is therefore amplified. My magnets theory is yet to be disproved...

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Seasick78

Just curious... Have you even tried flying this thing?

Does it fly well, or do you even know?

Yes, and it flies really well and is very efficient. My second to last flight was about 8 and a half minutes. I was expecting to break 10 minutes on my last flight with it, but that flight ended "abruptly".

I think it will be worth waiting for, but it has been a real exercise in patience.

My friend who loaned me his Pyro 650 and Jive 100LV flies with a BD-3SX and didn't have any idea there were vibrations that didn't belong. He had 40 flights on it.

Frankly I consider this an issue worth solving vs. letting the motor tear its own bearings up. Another friend with a 550SX and this same ESC/Motor combination pulled his Motor apart just for grins and found the top bearing wasn't good anymore. I can't be sure that this caused that issue, but it seems possible.

[Seasick78]

If it flies so well, what's all the fuss?

I've got a BD that I'll be happy to loan to you. I guarantee the SL feature won't care about whatever invisible vibes your SK is seeing... Not even one bit.



In all seriousness, if you want to give it a whirl, say the words.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

YUP and I repeatedly asked if I should send in my ESC when I shipped this back to Germany and kept being told that the ESC shouldn't have anything to do with it.

But my ESC works great if I'm happy flying ungoverned, NOT!!!!!


OK, now that I am vindicated ( ie. proven this is a REAL issue and not a product of soldering, FBL mounting, etc.. etc.. ) all I care about is getting a solution so I can enjoy my heli.

I've emailed Charles Anderson with my findings and I'm hoping Kontronik will make things right.

You missed my point it would do weird things unloaded this doesn't mean anything til you have got data during flight when the motor is loaded.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

You missed my point it would do weird things unloaded this doesn't mean anything til you have got data during flight when the motor is loaded.

I guess you missed my multiple points where I said

1. I had Flight logs showing the same problems in flight and during my last flight the vibs were so bad that they disabled the auto-level feature of my SK-720.

2. When I rebuilt it I had massive vibrations across the board and I tore my heli apart until only my motor was left spinning with no load on it.

3. When I spun up an 8 pole Align 600MX bolted to the same frame runing Mode 4 governing there were no vibrations.

The fact that there is such a difference in behavior between an 8 pole and a 10 pole motor suggests an issue in how the ESC is driving the motor.

So I'd say we have plenty of evidence that there is a real problem.

Also you would be suggesting that the Jive 100LV Pyro 650 pairing is something weird that requires special treatment and is not comparible to a Jive 120HV with Pyro 700, or Kosmik 160 with Pyro 800 or Koby 55A with Scorpion or Koby 90 with Scorpion that I always spin up on my bench the same way.

This is a real issue that needs to be addressed by Kontronik.

[red_1030]

This is all very disconcerting.. I was about to pull the trigger on this same motor and pair it with a jive 100 LV in my logo 500se..

I run the 100OLV and Kon 600-12 in my goblin and have been very happy with it but now I wonder if i am unknowingly having the same problem (i use iKon so no vibe logs to check)

Could this be averted by running external gov i wonder?? ie iKon/Vbar etc..??

[helicraze]

Any motor i spun up that had vibes with pinion not engaged had massive issues and affected the fbl unit eg when crazy and almost crashed as sensor is blind!

[abanihani]

I confirm that helicraze, I agree with Mark, why would the system run smooth on mode 1 and not mode 4 (governor engaged). When i had my Banshee at some point, i almost lost total control of the heli when i moved from 1600 rpm to 2000 rpm using vbar. I am sure it was very bad vibration coming at that particular rpm that affected the sensor. I hope Kontronik experts enlighten us to explain why these vibes on mode 4 only

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Seasick78

If it flies so well, what's all the fuss?

I've got a BD that I'll be happy to loan to you. I guarantee the SL feature won't care about whatever invisible vibes your SK is seeing... Not even one bit.

Let me be perfectly clear about this.

1. It's not invisible, you can SEE it vibrating.
2. You can FEEL it vibrating.
3. You can HEAR it. It sounds WRONG. Bad harmonics.

This is not something to ignore. My other helis do not do this. They are all running Mode 4 Kontronik governors and they are all quiet and smooth when I spin them up on the bench be they Koby, Jive or Kosmik.

This one is not like the others.

Thank goodness I have a vibration analysis tool to prove that there is an issue because I've already sent my Motor around the world trying to get to the bottom of this.

[Seasick78]

Very well.... I didn't notice the part about "seeing" vibrations.

[mmarian]

Look at the magnets for god sake.....You are running in circles and ignoring the very reason it might be causing the vibration. Trust me you wouldn't be the first one having the magnets dislodged and not knowing of that. Before looking everywhere else you need to eliminate this quite common issue.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Seasick78

Very well.... I didn't notice the part about "seeing" vibrations.

The tough part is that Greg and Charles spun the motor up and if they just ran Mode 1 they would have seen the smooth as silk operation that I saw out of this motor for the first time today. It was very noticeably smoother and sounded MUCH better. However without a measurable difference to show them the issue I was seeing I'd have nothing.

So this was a more complex issue and I needed more information and not ignorance.