Finding a good upgrade motor for a 300X... Scorpion 2208-24 winner.

[terryv83]

Originally Posted by Epoweredrc

As said I do not care, as long as its giving me 3600 on the ground at 0 pitch cause this is how we test all our helis and i know my dads 300x tach 3600 at 100% with stock motor and 10 tooth pinion and his fly great. so this is all i was shooting for.

It's good that you got what you were after, However I think that scorpion might bog a bit too much on the 13 tooth, Either way let us all know how you get on with it. And like I tell everyone, if you're still using the stock esc be very careful, they don't like to play nice with aftermarket motors in my experience.

[Epoweredrc]

Originally Posted by terryv83

It's good that you got what you were after, However I think that scorpion might bog a bit too much on the 13 tooth, Either way let us all know how you get on with it. And like I tell everyone, if you're still using the stock esc be very careful, they don't like to play nice with aftermarket motors in my experience.

Maybe it will but i know the stock motor bogs so.... I was just looking for something close to stock speed but would last. and yes still stock esc HK doesn't have the Turigy 45 AE in stock yet

[terryv83]

Yes the stock motor bogs also, but if you over gear any motor then try and get it to hold at any throttle setting all you get is a lot of heat and possibilitie of esc failure or worse a fire, lipos can get swollen or explode. This could just all be me being too cautious, DoubleCH would know more about this than me as I'm still learning about electric coming from nitro.

[Tuvison]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

I don't think 2213 has incredible power, at least probably not compare to Lynx 2214 or Typhoon 2215. And I can't comment on the Typhoon efficiency. But, I can say the Hyperion 2213-14 (3585kV) will do 6.5 mins with a 1500 pack close to 3600rpm HS governed (not just at zero pitch, and not just setting governed rpm at 3600 but can actually maintain 3600 at full 13* pitch) with piro/piro-flip practice the entire flights with X2-spec blades, both of which help improve flight time.
My Blade 300X Flight #1745 Back on X2-Spec CF Blades - YouTube

It was mentioned somewhere else in these forums that Hyperion is made by Scorpion, so I believe the Hyp 2213-14 and Scorpion 2213-14 are essentially the same.

As for the Typhoon efficiency, I believe Uriah mentioned that it doesnt have 0.2mm laminations on it, whereas the Scorpion and Hyperion's do. "The stators are made with 0.2mm laminations to give maximum efficiency, and minimum Eddy current losses."

I'm not looking for some crazy beast of an engine at the moment like the Lynx or Typhoon, but I think the Scorpion will give an awesome hop-up of power, efficiency and stability. I would buy a Hyperion but I can't find them in stock anywhere

[everydayflyer]

Keeping it simple the Scorpion 2208-24 has a larger dia. stator and rotor ,has more copper mass,better magnets thus has more torque and effeciency than the stock 320 e Flite motor. and also has ,better bearings,is much better balanced

The eFlite 320 with 10T pinion yeillds 3600 static at 0 pitch and Scorpion 2208-24 yields 3700 at 75% with a 13T. I theory it would be better to run a 12T pinion on the 2208-24 and run 100% Throttle for 3599.7 HS ,close enough to 3600 target ( ESCs are most effecient at 100% / full on) but then it would not be possible to govern . I have never been a big fan of goverened HS and I do not fly my LiPolys down so low that there is a real noticeable decrease in power.

[Murph_d]

Has anyone tried the Mystery F2632-4000? I can't seem to find stats on the power. Looks a lot like the Parkfly P2632-3800.

[Nelsonisms]

Originally Posted by Murph_d

Has anyone tried the Mystery F2632-4000? I can't seem to find stats on the power. Looks a lot like the Parkfly P2632-3800.

That's why they called it "Mystery" to keep you guessing.

I guess we can make a few assumptions based on the specs in this eBay listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mystery-Outr...-/300792899980

• Input Voltage: 11.1 - 18 Volt
• Max. Current: 23A

So assuming we're running 3S (11.1V) then it's 11.1V X 23A = 255.3W which with efficiency losses probably puts it in the same ballpark as the HKII-2208-24 (3590kv) with 220W but with less torque being a 4000kv motor.

[Epoweredrc]

Originally Posted by terryv83

Yes the stock motor bogs also, but if you over gear any motor then try and get it to hold at any throttle setting all you get is a lot of heat and possibilitie of esc failure or worse a fire, lipos can get swollen or explode. This could just all be me being too cautious, DoubleCH would know more about this than me as I'm still learning about electric coming from nitro.

This is why i picked this motor.
https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...6&postcount=21 ( His numbers are lower then mine i would guess he wasn't using as good of battery's maybe)
I went with a 13 tooth pinion cause I do not think a 11 or 12 would fit meaning the motor case would hit the elevator as it is now with a 13 there is only 72mm from hitting the elevator ball link. I do not think I am over gearing this motor ,as i mentioned all my flights yesterday ( hovers) 3 minutes the motor was not even warm, Nothing runs like a scorpion. there great motor between me and my father I am sure we have over 2,000 flights on scorpion motors mostly on airplanes.

[DoubleCH]

Originally Posted by Epoweredrc

As said I do not care, as long as its giving me 3600 on the ground at 0 pitch cause this is how we test all our helis and i know my dads 300x tach 3600 at 100% with stock motor and 10 tooth pinion and his fly great. so this is all i was shooting for.

That's like trying to judge a car's engine power by how many rpm it turns in top gear driving on the highway. Most cars these days can maintain speed in top gear on flat level highway with little problem. How much the engine over-works in top gear on steep incline at the same highway speed solely depends on how powerful the engine is (assuming pulling similar weight).

Originally Posted by terryv83

Yes the stock motor bogs also, but if you over gear any motor then try and get it to hold at any throttle setting all you get is a lot of heat and possibilitie of esc failure or worse a fire

Quite true but of course for the case of 2208-24 it's not that extreme. Under heavy load, a higher power motor will request more current to try maintain speed while a less powerful motor will more like becoming a resistor to generate heat. Just base on the 2208-25's kV number to come up with 13T pinion to gear you know the 220W motor is going to perform similar to the stock motor at the similar power level, except the 2208 is more efficient and runs a slightly bigger diameter meaning slightly more torque like everydayflyer says below.

Originally Posted by everydayflyer

Keeping it simple the Scorpion 2208-24 has a larger dia. stator and rotor ,has more copper mass,better magnets thus has more torque and effeciency than the stock 320 e Flite motor. and also has ,better bearings,is much better balanced

The eFlite 320 with 10T pinion yeillds 3600 static at 0 pitch and Scorpion 2208-24 yields 3700 at 75% with a 13T. I theory it would be better to run a 12T pinion on the 2208-24 and run 100% Throttle for 3599.7 HS ,close enough to 3600 target ( ESCs are most effecient at 100% / full on) but then it would not be possible to govern . I have never been a big fan of goverened HS and I do not fly my LiPolys down so low that there is a real noticeable decrease in power.

The main purpose of governor is not to maintain HS when running down battery charge but to maintain HS in high-load maneuver situation for more consistent and predictable behavior (especially for the tail). You can do hard-stop tic-tocs way more consistent with governor and you can do fast funnels more consistent without the fear of tail blowout when HS drops under load if you set up governor properly.

Of course if you're a pro who smacks 3D and knows your motor power well, you can benefit from straight 100% throttle over governor setup to smack and wait to restore full HS and then smack and repeat.

[Epoweredrc]

I thanks everyone for there input and welcome anyone who has questions to post i guess i just can't explain what I am trying to say enough about 0 pitch and head speed. Seems there very few who even own a tach. I have given my numbers and once i really fly the things I will give a update. if i can do 3 or more flips w/o mayjor bog it will be as good as the stock motor on 9 tooth pinion, if i can do flips whole flight then it be better then the stock.. But won't know till i try it.. Hoping new swash be here thur-fri maybe.

I admit I am not a pro heli pilot, DoubleCH is much better heli pilot then me. On my airplanes I like to have top everything cause i push the airplanes, but on helis I can not push a heli bigger then a MCPX to its max

[everydayflyer]

The main purpose of governor is not to maintain HS when running down battery charge but to maintain HS in high-load maneuver situation for more consistent and predictable behavior (especially for the tail).

I fully realize the purpose of governor mode and my comment was thai I do not use it and that I do not run my battery down to the point that there is a noticable power decrease. Most time my cells are at around 3.8 right after a flight or 45% to 50% state of charge ,I replace less than 800 in 1300 mA LiPolys more often than not around 700 mAh. Only way I can cause a tail issue is FFF hard banked right hand banked turns and using to much right tail on purpose.

You can do hard-stop tic-tocs way more consistent with governor and you can do fast funnels more consistent without the fear of tail blowout when HS drops under load if you set up governor properly.

I could not do funnels if my life depended on it. I am a big air sports flyer but can manage front ,back and side flips. Sixty nine years of age, reflexs are slower, eyes are weaker and coordinations is a lot worse than it was 30 years ago.

I read this in someone else's signature: All my helis are capabre of flying better than I can pilot them.

Another great signature line" If I move the sticks the right way I do not crash.

[DoubleCH]

It's a misconception that governor is only for pro pilots. It's almost the reverse. Pro pilots can get good use of running 100% throttle without governor while the average pilots benefit more from governor.

For a good analogy, here's a true story happened just these days. A buddy of ours is still a newbie pilot and has been at the stage of honing his hovering skills for quite some time. Like many newbies, he listened to people who suggested bigger the better which is generally true but the problem is you'll have to be at the stage good enough to experience that. Instead of using his 450X (FBL of course) for hover training, he decided to use his 500 3D (FB) and was all over the place and ended up having a few close calls including 1 that kept slowly flying away hundred of feet and at other times let's just say I had to make sure I was ready to jump at all time. His mentally was that FBL is only for the pros and thus at his stage of just honing hovering skills he thought FB would fit him better. WAY WRONG! It's almost the opposite. Pro pilots can 3D FB or FBL helis just the same. But for newbies, FBL helps tremendously especially in the wind. After having so much persuasion he finally decided to hover his 450X. Right away he could hover no problem and even hands-free for seconds in the wind today and it was nothing like he hovered his 500 3D. He wondered why he didn't start with his 450X sooner.

[everydayflyer]

Well I guess I am a better heli pilot than I thought as Ilearned to hover ,do piros, traveling piros FFF , 180 and 540 stall turns and such around 25 years ago with FB and a rate only gyro. Had two Concept 30s , a Kalt Cyclone 50 and a Kalt Wispher.

I guess I have just never had a govener that worked worth a toot. Tried many time with Castle Creaation Phonix ESC on my Blade 400 while FB, I have three micro V1 and V2 blade mCPX with governed flashed BL code and to me they fly no better than the non governed ones.

[DoubleCH]

Anybody who started the hobby way before lipos, FBLs, etc. did have to have a harder time picking up the skills from day 1 than newbies these days because of all the technological advance. One could sure learn to hover with a 90 size nitro FB heli having to focus not just on picking up pilot skills but also on whether the engine was running lean or would hesitate, but you won't realize because you've learned the hard way way back that it's so much easier these days to learn hover with lipos/brushless and FBL technology.

If you have the hardware ready and software tuned to run governor properly it works wonder and will never be anywhere near the "not worth a toot" category. Sure, a pro smack3D pilot will be able to fly 100% flat TC to do the wait-and-smack (i.e. wait for HS to build, then smack and kill the HS, then wait for HS to build again and repeat), but nothing beats governor for clean 4-point tic-toc and big-ben moves. For an average flyer like me, I love governor for consistent and predictable performance from all my batteries new and old from start to end and no need to buy high-price batteries. That alone saves me money big time.

[Epoweredrc]

Well after finding out this morning my cap on my stock 25A esc is loose. I decided to just install my Castle creation 25 amp esc i have had for yrs, this one has been on planes, helis, small foam planes, bigger planes everything, well i got a UBEC to go with it and installed both on my heli. went out to test make sure motor running right way all all that good stuff and found my heli had no power , well finally figured it out, it had been long time since messed with the esc in a heli. I had to increase my TC on my radio. i ended up setting stunt 2 to 100% on the TX, and stunt one to like 80% I still need to increase my normal also cause in normal it barely has any power to fly i was at like 50% I think at mid stick and above. maybe i will go up to 60 or 70%
but now its like 2900/3100 and 3600 I am not seeing my 3900 i did before with this esc.
Am i missing something? i set it to fixed end points.


What I am saying is it seems with the Castle esc your TC have to be higher to get the same headspeed. I am trying to find my old note where i used to run this esc on my old blade 400 but so far can't find my notes.

I could try gov mode and i guess set something like 3000/3300/3600
and I might try that not sure yet. Still waiting formy swash to get here..

[DoubleCH]

Like I've said a few times before, stock ESC seems to run Neri aggressive timing. I bet you're running 18 degrees or less with the CC. forget about what Scorpion suggests 6 degrees. Run at least 18, or even higher to see if you can get to similar behavior with stock ESC.

The other thing is make sure you set endpoints correctly if you run fixed endpoints mode with CC. I never liked the idea of CC's fixed endpoint design where you have to set TX's throttle channel endpoints to calibrate.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Epoweredrc]

Originally Posted by DoubleCH

Like I've said a few times before, stock ESC seems to run Neri aggressive timing. I bet you're running 18 degrees or less with the CC. forget about what Scorpion suggests 6 degrees. Run at least 18, or even higher to see if you can get to similar behavior with stock ESC.

The other thing is make sure you set endpoints correctly if you run fixed endpoints mode with CC. I never liked the idea of CC's fixed endpoint design where you have to set TX's throttle channel endpoints to calibrate.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

About the timing. I set it to 0 cause it showed 0 was Best efficiency, lowest motor temp.it says even on 10 the motor can get very hot??
start up power I left default 59
PWM I set to 8khz read online that was best for scorpion motor.

Spool up rate to med. 5
head speed change rate med. 5

after a 4 minute flight it was still nice and cool only 104 degrees it is like 90 outside today

my throttle travel is set to 100 and 100
should I run these numbers up?

I noticed i had to increase the throttle trim to make the motor come on sooner, i was almost at mid stick before it even started running. I had a few click in it for the stock esc but even more for this one.

[DoubleCH]

Follow CC instruction to set your TX endpoints on throttle channel. 0 degree is not the most efficient if you compare same power output. It runs cooler because it makes less power. Try 18 1st and check temp (after making sure your TX endpoints are set properly). If it's not making as much HS as stock try higher timing and check temp. Like I said I run 18 on my 2213 pushing it hard and it's still just barely any temp above ambient it's not even worth pulling out my IR temp gun.

[Epoweredrc]

just watched a video about setting them end points, and i am pretty sure i have never done it like that on my other helicopters but i did run Gov mode with them.

[Epoweredrc]

okay i did the end points the way the video all said and its still got funky readings from stock esc. I guess I will increase the timing now and try it.

Please look at the pic this is the number your saying you run at 18 right