Massive vibrations from Pyro motor ( finally got it ) -I +P +S

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by mmarian

Look at the magnets for god sake.....You are running in circles and ignoring the very reason it might be causing the vibration. Trust me you wouldn't be the first one having the magnets dislodged and not knowing of that. Before looking everywhere else you need to eliminate this quite common issue.

That would imply this was is a widespread problem and two motors purchased 4 months apart have the same problem and nearly identical vibration graphs, along with all the vibration dissappearing when they are spun up in mode 1. Furthermore you think that Greg missed this when he pulled my motor apart and then Kontronik missed this when it was inspected in Germany.

It's possible, but if the system is really that broken, I may as well order the Scorpion right now.

[mmarian]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

That would imply this was is a widespread problem and two motors purchased 4 months apart have the same problem and nearly identical vibration graphs, along with all the vibration dissappearing when they are spun up in mode 1. Furthermore you think that Greg missed this when he pulled my motor apart and then Kontronik missed this when it was inspected in Germany.

It's possible, but if the system is really that broken, I may as well order the Scorpion right now.

Well, there is only one way to find out, isn't it??? And the way is very simple and it takes 5 minutes at most. What I am saying is that if it was me and I couldn't solve the unexplained vibration mystery I would investigate any plausible suggestion. I just do not understand why you refusing to pull the motor apart and have a look. If it is not the magnets, than you have one less thing to worry about. and you can follow the other leads

[smsodhi]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

Yes, and it flies really well and is very efficient. My second to last flight was about 8 and a half minutes. I was expecting to break 10 minutes on my last flight with it, but that flight ended "abruptly".

I think it will be worth waiting for, but it has been a real exercise in patience.

My friend who loaned me his Pyro 650 and Jive 100LV flies with a BD-3SX and didn't have any idea there were vibrations that didn't belong. He had 40 flights on it.

Frankly I consider this an issue worth solving vs. letting the motor tear its own bearings up. Another friend with a 550SX and this same ESC/Motor combination pulled his Motor apart just for grins and found the top bearing wasn't good anymore. I can't be sure that this caused that issue, but it seems possible.

Are we to understand then, that the motor and esc were working as you say "really well and is very efficient" up until a crash in this particular heli?

If so then, the combo has worked pre crash, and after the crash the problem has started?

[dl7uae]

Mark, you're running it without load and so far a wrong parameterized control loop.

You have a Jog. Let's see what PWM is doing under these circumstances.
I wouldn't be surprised to see it oscillating.

Now everything comes together and also the motor itself can play his role including number of poles and other parameters, mechanical ones up to bearing, shaft, pinion etc.

Follow the suggestion to have a look INTO the motor, on the magnets.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by smsodhi

Are we to understand then, that the motor and esc were working as you say "really well and is very efficient" up until a crash in this particular heli?

If so then, the combo has worked pre crash, and after the crash the problem has started?

The helicopter flew really well and was very efficient.
However, the flight logs show it was also throwing some serious vibrations.

The Jive 100LV and Pyro 650 really didn't like running at lower head speeds like 1950 rpm.
In the flight before this at 2150 rpm the peak vibration was 21G which is still way too high.

As you can see it is actually WORSE under a load than without a load and this is before a crash.

Usually the tail vibration is the highest vibration on one of these graphs and the motor is closer to a 1.8G or something similar, but you can see here it was very high.

This was 2 minutes into my 3rd flight with this heli.

[mkovalcson]

For comparison this is what my Protos 500 looks like when I spin it up on my bench with tail blades on.

This is what a healthy helicopter looks like spun up on the bench with Mode 4 governing running.

Notice that motor spike looks very much like the Pyro 650 does when I ran it in Mode 1.

[smsodhi]

Hmm, so your saying that it has always been throwing these vibes from the start but have just managed until now? How many flights have you done with this combo and did you have issues with self levelling from the start?

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by smsodhi

Hmm, so your saying that it has always been throwing these vibes from the start but have just managed until now? How many flights have you done with this combo and did you have issues with self levelling from the start?

It flew 3 times. The self-leveling was dissabled from the first flight.

I just pulled up my original bench test logs and they were bad too. I remember thinking that it must be a mesh issue with the herringbone main gear or that it had to do with the fact the main gear on the Logo was self centering with the OWB.

So I decided to fly it like that just to see if it was better in flight with blades on, because I thought it might do better with a load on it. It didn't. I also hoped that when I rebuilt it I would find the problem which I narrowed down to the motor and here we are.

[smsodhi]

My guess would then be, unless there is an incompatibility issue with the components the motor has had issues from the start. Maybe a misalignment of the magnets in production or a cut in the windings. Your issue would not have been picked up on spooling unless in gov mode, and K missed my cut wire on examination as posted before.
Interesting problem. If you do open the motor, measure the gaps between the magnets to look for alignment issues and look for sooting on the windings which may point to a cut in the windings

[mkovalcson]

Since someone is sure to complain that the Protos 500 is belted and that is absorbing the vibrations here are my bench vibrations from my Synergy E5 with a TT tail.

I rekitted my E5 to the Logo 550SX.

It is running the same Jive 100LV, SK-720 BE, servos, Jeti reciever.

The only thing different is that is it using an Align 600MX motor.

The motor is running at 25440 rpm.

This is what I want to see out of my 550 sized heli

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by smsodhi

My guess would then be, unless there is an incompatibility issue with the components the motor has had issues from the start. Maybe a misalignment of the magnets in production or a cut in the windings. Your issue would not have been picked up on spooling unless in gov mode, and K missed my cut wire on examination as posted before.
Interesting problem. If you do open the motor, measure the gaps between the magnets to look for alignment issues and look for sooting on the windings which may point to a cut in the windings

This may be the case, but it would also have to be a systemic issue since I have two Pyro 650-103's here behaving identically.

Can I get permission from a Kontronik representative to open my Pyro 650 to examine it without voiding my warrantee ?

[mkovalcson]

I've been told this,

"What you can adjust with the progdisc (relevant to your predicament) is RPM control with the P and I gains and what Kontronik call smoothing, together with timing which goes from -5 to +10."

Is it time to break down and order a ProgDisc and see if adjusting these parameters helps ?

[f8fbc]

All I have to say is, thanks to Mark for bringing this up when he did.

I was getting ready to buy the exact motor for my E5 which would be running via a Helijive.

I think I will wait now until some resolution is found on this problem.

One question I didn't see is would the software version on the Jive have any impact?

Possibly the newer software versions wont do this?

Lance

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by f8fbc

All I have to say is, thanks to Mark for bringing this up when he did.

I was getting ready to buy the exact motor for my E5 which would be running via a Helijive.

I think I will wait now until some resolution is found on this problem.

One question I didn't see is would the software version on the Jive have any impact?

Possibly the newer software versions wont do this?

Lance

I asked the same question in the second post of this thread.

My Jive 100LV has firmware Version 9
My friend says his Jive 100LV has firmware Version 11.

I don't have a ProgDisc and don't know another way to verify the current firmware.

I think the current version is 13.
I understand that one of the updates to 13 was the ability to run 14 pole motors. Maybe firmware version 13 could handle this better.

I wonder if Charles has the ability to update a Jive to Version 13

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

I asked the same question in the second post of this thread.

My Jive 100LV has firmware Version 9
My friend says his Jive 100LV has firmware Version 11.

I don't have a ProgDisc and don't know another way to verify the current firmware.

I think the current version is 13.
I understand that one of the updates to 13 was the ability to run 14 pole motors. Maybe firmware version 13 could handle this better.

I wonder if Charles has the ability to update a Jive to Version 13

Yes Firmware updates can be done. I'll check with him and make sure he has the "black box" with him. Are you coming down to the Huntsville Event this weekend?

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

Yes Firmware updates can be done. I'll check with him and make sure he has the "black box" with him. Are you coming down to the Huntsville Event this weekend?

No, but I live about 90 miles from Chattanooga, USPS gets there pretty quickly.

If we do this, maybe I can send my friend's Jive with mine since they are both experiencing the same problem.

[f8fbc]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

Yes Firmware updates can be done. I'll check with him and make sure he has the "black box" with him. Are you coming down to the Huntsville Event this weekend?

Shoot, sounds to me like Mark is a pretty loyal Kontronik customer. Seems to me they could pull a 100LV and 650-103 off the shelf and give it try on mode 4 and see what happens, if it works, load prior software versions and see if there is a change.

Either confirm or deny the problem, couldn't take but a couple hours, You would think they would want to know anyway.

Lance

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

No, but I live about 90 miles from Chattanooga, USPS gets there pretty quickly.

If we do this, maybe I can send my friend's Jive with mine since they are both experiencing the same problem.

I am pretty sure updating the firmware will have no effect. If Skookum has had issues with other controllers on 10-14 pole motors they appear to be the only ones experiencing it. and it sounds like an isolation issue with their sensors. There has to be a harmonic that is occurring and when the rpm is holding constant.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

I am pretty sure updating the firmware will have no effect. If Skookum has had issues with other controllers on 10-14 pole motors they appear to be the only ones experiencing it. and it sounds like an isolation issue with their sensors. There has to be a harmonic that is occurring and when the rpm is holding constant.

Dude! What is this Deny Deny Deny there is a problem and it will go away?

So even though I actually have a vibration analysis tool that most other FBL controllers don't that actually allows me to show you the issue with this ESC and MOTOR combination, you choose to sweep this data under the rug and BLAME the ISSUE on my FBL controller!!!!!! WTF!!!

If it were a frequency issue I would have seen the vibrations rise and fall when I had the motor running in Mode 1, but no it was smooth as silk from 0 to WOT.

As it is I'm getting this vibration problem in every one of my 3 Flight Mode head speeds.

ALL of them! It only happens when the Governor is active. period.

THERE IS A MAJOR ISSUE HERE!!!!!

[Wynn1427]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

I asked the same question in the second post of this thread.

My Jive 100LV has firmware Version 9
My friend says his Jive 100LV has firmware Version 11.

I don't have a ProgDisc and don't know another way to verify the current firmware.

I think the current version is 13.
I understand that one of the updates to 13 was the ability to run 14 pole motors. Maybe firmware version 13 could handle this better.

I wonder if Charles has the ability to update a Jive to Version 13

Your jlog can verify the jive version, there is a txt file on the sd card.

There was a post once that had indicated that kontronik had forgot to update the line in the code from in jLog forum so v13 were reading v12 on jLog (Maybe Tom can recall this). Greg didn't know of such an issue when we spoke last. I sent a v9 into Greg a few months back and said it was updated to v13, my jLog reads v12.

Wynn