Tips for keeping speed low in forward and reverse funnels?

[Pitch-Itch]

Ok guys, so I started flying collective pitch a little over a month ago. Using the ArchmageAU lesson plan I have progressed more in the past week than I did all 2+ weeks before. I went from doing simple loops to doing hard, fast hurricanes (and slow ones), upright piro hovers (still working on inverted piro), inverted hovers, SOME inverted flying, funnels, etc. I couldn't do any of that a week ago.

Anyway, first off, what are your tips for entering a funnel in reverse? I can do it, but maybe only 20% of the time. The rest I either end up in a reverse hurricane or I have to bail out.

Second, in forward funnels (and reverse when I get them) I find myself having a hard time regulating speed. I can regulate the size of the funnel no problem, but what is controlling my speed? Is it just the aileron input I am giving?

Any general tips in addition to the questions I've asked would be helpful as well. I want to know as much of the fundamentals as I possibly can. Thanks guys!

[Angelo A]

Originally Posted by DavisBladeWorks

Ok guys, so I started flying collective pitch a little over a month ago. Using the ArchmageAU lesson plan I have progressed more in the past week than I did all 2+ weeks before. I went from doing simple loops to doing hard, fast hurricanes (and slow ones), upright piro hovers (still working on inverted piro), inverted hovers, SOME inverted flying, funnels, etc. I couldn't do any of that a week ago.

Anyway, first off, what are your tips for entering a funnel in reverse? I can do it, but maybe only 20% of the time. The rest I either end up in a reverse hurricane or I have to bail out.

Second, in forward funnels (and reverse when I get them) I find myself having a hard time regulating speed. I can regulate the size of the funnel no problem, but what is controlling my speed? Is it just the aileron input I am giving?

Any general tips in addition to the questions I've asked would be helpful as well. I want to know as much of the fundamentals as I possibly can. Thanks guys!

ArchmageAU's program is good training for sure. You're doing well!

I want to preface anything I write by saying learn to fly sideways in both directions. Start making large circuits or even square pattern circuits and especially 8s. A funnel is simply a sideways circuit. Once you master this orientation, funnels are cake (mostly)

To answer your questions:

Backwards into a funnel, tail down upright is actually pretty easy. If you are ending up in a hurricane you are not adding enough rudder. Try it with a little more rudder and once you get into the funnel, remember you are doing a sideways circle. Play with the elevator to adjust your size and speed. The collective will then control your altitude and aileron will adjust the diameter of the funnel. I hope this helps!

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by DavisBladeWorks

Ok guys, so I started flying collective pitch a little over a month ago. Using the ArchmageAU lesson plan I have progressed more in the past week than I did all 2+ weeks before. I went from doing simple loops to doing hard, fast hurricanes (and slow ones), upright piro hovers (still working on inverted piro), inverted hovers, SOME inverted flying, funnels, etc. I couldn't do any of that a week ago.

Anyway, first off, what are your tips for entering a funnel in reverse? I can do it, but maybe only 20% of the time. The rest I either end up in a reverse hurricane or I have to bail out.

Second, in forward funnels (and reverse when I get them) I find myself having a hard time regulating speed. I can regulate the size of the funnel no problem, but what is controlling my speed? Is it just the aileron input I am giving?

Any general tips in addition to the questions I've asked would be helpful as well. I want to know as much of the fundamentals as I possibly can. Thanks guys!

Once you can control speed in tail-first upright circles, you will find controlling speed in tail-down (skids out) funnels is almost the same. You should also find one side easier than the other (practice both).

If you end up in reverse hurricane, you need more rudder.

To control speed in a circle (forward, backwards, sideways), it all comes down to balancing the disc. Too much tilt in the direction of the circle, it accelerates. Too little little tilt in the direction of the circle, it comes to a stop. Too much angle towards the center it drops. Too little angle toward the centre it climbs out (this is your bail out ). Too little rudder it slides in. Too much rudder it slides out. Too little collective it spirals out and down. Too much collective it spirals up and in.

As you can see, circles and funnels are all about balancing all 4 inputs. Throw in wind and you need to adjust at all points in a circle to compensate for lift and air speed. Always add wind in the simulator when up to these levels.

Keep practicing and you will get there. Get forward nailed, then backward, then sideways. Logical progression.

[Steve Graham]

One of the common mistakes I see is failure to manage the subtle interaction between "back pressure" and collective. It might make things easier if we had a term, perhaps someone does, for what I call back pressure. What I'm talking about is the stick input that counters centrifugal force and pulls the heli through the curve of the circuit. In upright forward flight this input IS back pressure on the elevator and an old term especially for those of us with a background in airplanes. For upright backwards flight it is forward pressure but still back pressure relative to the circle and direction of flight. Upright nose in CW funnels it is left cyclic and CCW is right. I'll have to think on this some more but hopefully I've clearly defined at least for now what I mean by back pressure.

Now then, when you are trying to control a circuits speed there is a complex interplay between back pressure and power (collective). If you find the heli descending very slightly a lot of people will add power in an effort to level off. This will result in an accelerating heli that may or may not recover level flight. If you only add back pressure you will likely find that the heli will maintain altitude but both slow down and decrease the turn radius. What's needed is a small dose of both back pressure AND power. You must experiment with this to train your reflexes to automatically recognize deviations and give the inputs necessary to maintain the chosen trajectory.

Basic flight path control in circuits of all orientations is generally fairly quickly established by most pilots; however, true mastery of speed, radius and vertical performance in circuits in the IRL conditions with wind is a lifetimes work.

Get to it

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Steve Graham

...
Basic flight path control in circuits of all orientations is generally fairly quickly established by most pilots; however, true mastery of speed, radius and vertical performance in circuits in the IRL conditions with wind is a lifetimes work.
....

+10000. Well said.