3G vs V-Bar vs SJGD/Axiom

[gtrick90]

Originally Posted by NTM

Nice to see an informed and unbiased direct comparison finally.

Thank you for trusting me!

I've read many threads about the 3G Align and no one conviced me at all...

So I've got one unit and tested it by myself...

I think there are two different ways to compare the 3G Align:

Flybar vs 3G FBL System and Other FBL System vs 3G FBL system.

The results (and compare method) are quite different...

Ciao

[maui80]

Originally Posted by gtrick90

Finally I've tried the new 3G Align (only 3 flights on it)

I've not used (like I said before) the head in the kit but I've used the stock TRex 700 head with Mikado flybarless kit.

I've changed (from my previous fbl setup with Vbar 4.0) the servos wheels with the new ones in the Align FBL kit.

In this way the mechanical gain is lower on my setup (higher swash AFR values, higher ALE/ELE gains with much more finer control on them)

The unit in air performs well but very different compared to VBar 4.0.
The 3G align FBL behaviour is much like a flybarred heli.

In an aerobatic envelope (i.e. F3C-like) the heli tracks well (not as much as the vbar 4.0) with almost no bad tendencies.

In a 3d flight the worst thing is the elevator oscillations when you try to stop the heli (i.e. stops, ailerons tic-tocs, elevator-tictocs, rainbows).

I've lowered the elevator oscillations reducing the ELE gain, but is still noticeable.

In the 3d manouvers the 3G Align needs corrections (almost like the flybarred version) opposite to the vbar 4.0 that is always locked in.

The tail is good but the pirouette consistency is not on par with the vbar 4.0 (IMHO the best tail ever).

The pirouette is not level like the vbar 4.0 and needs cyclic corrections.

No problem with take offs and autos.

Overall a good FBL unit that needs some mechanical adjustements (i.e. main blades selection, dampers, arm lenghts...) to achieve a good setup.

PROs
- Simply to setup
- Flybarred-like feeling

CONs
Stock setup is "average", not as good as other FBL units
Lacks of pirouette consistency
In the 3D manouvres is not locked-in like Mikado VBar

I'll try other mechanical setups and put on the unit more flights so I can write down much more detailed info.

Enjoy!!

Great work very interesting

[gtrick90]

Originally Posted by maui80

Great work very interesting

In the next days there will be some news so stay tuned!!!

Luca

[g_dmitry]

Great review! Thanks

Luca, are you able to do more advanced moves like piro loop, piro tic-tocs, piro circle, maybe some reversals? It would be very interesting to know how G3 compares to Vbar in these moves.

[gtrick90]

Originally Posted by g_dmitry

Great review! Thanks

Luca, are you able to do more advanced moves like piro loop, piro tic-tocs, piro circle, maybe some reversals? It would be very interesting to know how G3 compares to Vbar in these moves.

I'll try to do my best with pyro moves but don't ask me the pyro reversal stuff

Next w.e. I and an italian 3DMaster pilot put some more flights on the 3g system and vbar head-to-head.

Stay tuned.....

[gtrick90]

It's raining!!!

[gtrick90]

Finally at home after a weekend full of fbl tests!!!

First of all I'll let you know the model configurations:

Me:
TRex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
JR 8900
Futaba s 9252
Spektrum AR7100R
Trueblood Dampers
Align 3G & FBL Head
Align Blades


Trex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
JR 8900
Futaba s 9252
JR 921 2.4GHz
RevMax
Trueblood Dampers
Mikado Kit Head
VBar 4.0
SAB Blades

Maxxx:

TRex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
Futaba s 9256
Futaba s 9252
Futaba FASST rx
RevMax
Trueblood Dampers
Align 3G & Head Kit
SAB Blades


Trex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
Futaba s 9256
Futaba s 9252
Futaba FASST rx
RevMax
Truebod Dampers
Mikado Head Kit
VBar 4.0
SAB Blades

I'll start from the end:

we (me and Maxxx) have both removed the 3G units from our 700's

Align with the 3G fbl has made a very simple system that performs in an average way on his products line.

The heli that performs better with the 3G is the Trex 500.

On the other heli (600/700) the worst thing in the 3G is the elevator oscillation.

You can try to modify the heli mechanics to reduce the oscillation but you cannot be able to completely eliminate it.

If you use all Align stuff on your hely (like mine) the 3G performs a little better but the oscillation is still noticeable and annoying.

Also changing the cyclic gain (mechanical gain) of the head does'nt eliminate the oscillation.

In the 3D manouvres the flybar version performs better (4/12 points tic-tocs, funnels, piro-tic-tocs and so on) than the 3G equipped 700.

The cyclic speed and the power availability is (obviously) better in the 3G equipped 700 compared to the flybarred version.

During manouvres FAI-like the 3G performs well.

The 3G piro speed consistency is good but the pirouette need more cyclic corrections than the flybarred version.

Overall the 3G FBL unit is an average FBL system, simple to setup but the performances are affected by the lacks of tunability and are too much compromised by the mechanics of the heli.

If you want to try an FBL system, simple to setup and you are not into the 3D, the 3G FBL unit is a good choice.

I think that the 3G and the VBar are not directly comparable...too much different approach to the FBL world with too much different performance level.

Next the SJGD/Axiom FBL system.....

Stay tuned

[blade strike]

Originally Posted by gtrick90

Next the SJGD/Axiom FBL system.....

Stay tuned

That's what I have been waiting for.. I really liked the fs600.. Sold it to get a g3 and kicking myself in the ass

Want to see how you compare it to a v-bar

[gtrick90]

Well,
it's time to continue with the test on another FBL system: ths SJGD/AXIOM FS-600 v2

I've removed from my TTrex 700 the Align 3G FBL unit and replaced it with the FS-600v2.

All other things remain untouched.

Following a couple of pics



Enjoy!!

[gtrick90]

Waiting for a better weather, I'll write the FS-600v2 initial configuration:

SWPL MIXER RATE
---------------
AILE-RAT 100
ELEV-RAT 105
PITC-RAT 040
CYCL-LMT 300


SWPL GAIN FEEDBK
----------------
AIL-GAIN 028
ELE-GAIN 028
AIL-FEED 003
ELE-FEED 003
AILLSTOP 100
AILRSTOP 100
ELELSTOP 100
ELERSTOP 100


Collective +/- 12,5°
Cyclic +/- 11,5°


Enjoy!!

[bestan]

Originally Posted by gtrick90

Finally at home after a weekend full of fbl tests!!!

First of all I'll let you know the model configurations:

Me:
TRex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
JR 8900
Futaba s 9252
Spektrum AR7100R
Trueblood Dampers
Align 3G & FBL Head
Align Blades


Trex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
JR 8900
Futaba s 9252
JR 921 2.4GHz
RevMax
Trueblood Dampers
Mikado Kit Head
VBar 4.0
SAB Blades

Maxxx:

TRex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
Futaba s 9256
Futaba s 9252
Futaba FASST rx
RevMax
Trueblood Dampers
Align 3G & Head Kit
SAB Blades


Trex 700
YS 91SR3C
Hatori 939 + Kasama Header
DS 610 @ 2S
Futaba s 9256
Futaba s 9252
Futaba FASST rx
RevMax
Truebod Dampers
Mikado Head Kit
VBar 4.0
SAB Blades

I'll start from the end:

we (me and Maxxx) have both removed the 3G units from our 700's

Align with the 3G fbl has made a very simple system that performs in an average way on his products line.

The heli that performs better with the 3G is the Trex 500.

On the other heli (600/700) the worst thing in the 3G is the elevator oscillation.

You can try to modify the heli mechanics to reduce the oscillation but you cannot be able to completely eliminate it.

If you use all Align stuff on your hely (like mine) the 3G performs a little better but the oscillation is still noticeable and annoying.

Also changing the cyclic gain (mechanical gain) of the head does'nt eliminate the oscillation.

In the 3D manouvres the flybar version performs better (4/12 points tic-tocs, funnels, piro-tic-tocs and so on) than the 3G equipped 700.

The cyclic speed and the power availability is (obviously) better in the 3G equipped 700 compared to the flybarred version.

During manouvres FAI-like the 3G performs well.

The 3G piro speed consistency is good but the pirouette need more cyclic corrections than the flybarred version.

Overall the 3G FBL unit is an average FBL system, simple to setup but the performances are affected by the lacks of tunability and are too much compromised by the mechanics of the heli.

If you want to try an FBL system, simple to setup and you are not into the 3D, the 3G FBL unit is a good choice.

I think that the 3G and the VBar are not directly comparable...too much different approach to the FBL world with too much different performance level.

Next the SJGD/Axiom FBL system.....

Stay tuned

2 nice videos with the 3g on a trex700
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4HvDZqy5oc&feature=related[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxFMjUNdvno[/ame]

enjoy

[gtrick90]

Very nice videos...much better than the ones performed by Bert Kammerer with the 3G Unit

As you can see in the first video, during the large manouvres (90% of the flight time) the heli tracks well...during the stops, flips and so on the elevator is very 'notchy' and the oscillation is noticeable..

My GAUI 255 FBL is more 'locked in' ...I'll shot a video as soon as the weather becomes better (it's raining ) so I can show you what I mean...

The second video is awesome ....the collective and cyclic control is wonderful...as you can see there are no sharp stops between the manouvres and only in two or three stops you can see the oscillation.
If you fly like this kid (with smooth transitions between manouvres) you can hide any worst behaviour of the system/model.

As I said in my post, if you can find the right combination of blades, dampers etc you can have a well performing fbl system....

Just a note:

I write my personal opinions that are based on my personal experiences and there are two things in common between the various FBL systems I try: my two thumbs!

Ciao

[ShuNut]

Originally Posted by bestan

2 nice videos with the 3g on a trex700
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4HvD...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxFMjUNdvno

enjoy

WW.......................... ! Who is that child on the 2nd vid ? i was blown away by his flying, how old is he ? Looks younger than Justin Chi, brilliant flying. Would be good to hear from those two guys what they think of the 3G'd heli compared to the FB version.

gtrick90 I'm finding your reviews interesting. If your going to do some vids it would be good to have some side by side vids of the same heli doing the same maneuvers, 1st with V-bar and then 3G & etc. (if u are willing & have the time that is).

Daaam, i'm still like WoW @ that youngsters flying.

Peace

[gtrick90]

Originally Posted by ShuNut

WW.......................... ! Who is that child on the 2nd vid ? i was blown away by his flying, how old is he ? Looks younger than Justin Chi, brilliant flying. Would be good to hear from those two guys what they think of the 3G'd heli compared to the FB version.

gtrick90 I'm finding your reviews interesting. If your going to do some vids it would be good to have some side by side vids of the same heli doing the same maneuvers, 1st with V-bar and then 3G & etc. (if u are willing & have the time that is).

Daaam, i'm still like WoW @ that youngsters flying.

Peace

Hi ShutNut.

I'll try to post as soon as I can a couple of videos for comparison.

In the posted videos the strange behaviour of the 3G (elevators vibration) is almost not noticeable (but you can feel it on the sticks and if you pay attention you can see as i wrote the elevator problem) so the instability during other manouvres (like stops, aileron tic-tocs etc) compared to the flybar or other fbl system.

Pls try to ask someone to hovering (yes, just hovering) the heli with the 3G and give little movement of the elevator (back and forth) so you can clearly see the oscillation that you can get rid off only with the tuning of the gains.

All the people I see with the 3G (starting from the simple sunday pilot to a couple of 3D masters italian pilot ) have these problems (elevator oscillation and instability).

This kind of oscillation and instability is inacceptable for me (again it's my personal opinion) because with the flybar and with other fbl systems I own the SAME model does'nt has these kind of problems.

I think that with a mechanical tuning (i.e. choosing the right blades, right dampening etc) you can try to lower but not eliminate the problems.
I'll hope in the coming usb connection cable

But if you (and your thumbs too) accept these diffferent behaviour of the heli...the choice is up to you!

As I said, I'll try to report my findings only...nothing more than this.

Ciao

[ShuNut]

Yeah i did notice in the 1st vid and some other 3G vids what seemed like oscillation.
I'm confused as to why the USB is taking so long to manifest. It going to be interesting to see if it fixes the in flight prob ppl are complaining about.

No argument on your views either, i've not flown any FBL ever so i cant agree or disagree.
Do keep the info coming as its very interesting.

gtrick90, did you try any of the "piro" maneuvers that ppl say the 3G fails due to none or not good enough piro compensation ? if so what did you think of the 3G in those moves ?


Peace

[HiroboFreak]

Is that the Phantom tail kick in the first vid @ 3.44 ??

Certainly looks like it.

[OICU812]

Yes there's a kick and elevator oscillation on elevator stops present in video. The kid can fly none the less.

[gtrick90]

Tried the 3G again today installed on my GAUI 425 Flybarless.

The oscillations now are on the aileron too......

I've tweaked the ALE/ELE gains but the heli doesn't fly well like before (with both VBar and SJGD v2).

With the Align PU gel the tail (with s9256 servo) doesn't hold and is very mushy....changed with a thick adesive foam and the results are better....

As I said before the 3G unit is TOO MUCH susceptible to the mechanical setup and I think that Align designed the unit around his stuff (heli, servos, blades and so on).

There are rumors about a firmware update (available for free I hope) for the 3G unit as soon as the USB cable hit the market.....

Ciao

[HiroboFreak]

Use a very stiff tape & strap it down.
There will be quite a difference.

This unit likes to be pretty much hard-mounted.

[CeeveeSiN]

noticed the same thing.. used the stock tape and a strap and it flew very well.