Transitioning to FBL

[mcarter76]

After flying my 450 FB for several months now, I decided that it's time to give FBL a try. Reasoning is that it will resist wind better and make flying more enjoyable and give me a little head start with basic 3D maneuvers. These assumptions may be incorrect, but it's the best I've come up with after watching other pilots fly at the club. No one seems to use FB either, at least not that I've seen. At this point, the only inverted flying I've attempted is a roll and pitch pumps that arch to the right -- sort of approaching 90*

So I recently gave 3GX a try (eBay auction) and now it seems like a big mistake. V3 firmware came pre-installed and would not link to the PC -- not good. I completed DIR set up in spite of this, but had very little knowledge of what sort of effect the flight settings would have, other than as it related to the rudder gyro. First flight with the 3GX it hovered okay, but it did something weird (possibly a result of bad inputs or set up) and tipped over on landing. This really confused me as I've never tipped a FB heli over on landing.

After this disappointing experience with 3GX, I decided to get the Microbeast (V3) based on discussion forum research and will be installing that shortly, but now I'm really nervous about take off and landing. My question is that even though I'm moderately comfortable with FF flight and different hovering orientations and pirouettes will it still be necessary to slap on the training gear again? I'm also flying an MCPX and was wondering if learning FBL on that would be better than risking my 450 Sport V2 (DFC Upgrade) to further damage.

Here are some tips that people have shared about FBL landing:
1. Don't give cyclic inputs during take off and landing.
2. Mini auto it down.
3. Land and immediately hit TH.
4. Land but continue to fly the heli.
5. Land but gradually reduce throttle.
6. Land and immediately give full negative pitch while zeroing throttle.

The part that confuses me is that there are so many conflicting ideas here. The suggestion that was most helpful to me is that FBL systems don't understand that you are on the ground and perceive any force on the skids as an air current and try to correct for it.

Why couldn't they make a FBL landing mode or something, wouldn't that make it easier. I really love flying, and when things go well, but I'm getting tired of being scared all the time and crashing when I least expect it. Will there ever be a point that I'll have confidence in my flying skills, even if it's only average ability?

[mulicheng]

I've flown FBL for a couple years. The only one that seems relevant to me is #4, continue to fly the heli when you land. Of course when I land I hit TH pretty soon anyway since the point in me landing is usually because it's time to stop flying... but I just have a habit of making sure the heli doesn't drift on the ground while the blades are still spinning. I think in general people might be a little over-advising.. meaning it isn't quite as big of a deal as it might sound.

[ArchmageAU]

They are all right and all wrong.

The important point is to understand HOW a FBL works, then you will know WHY things happen. Then you can chose your own style of landing.

The thing to remember with FBL is that the gyro's are really in control. All your inputs are mediated by the gyros. A FBL system is a quasi-intelligent HH gyro for the cyclics as well as the rudder. So. the real trick is to make sure the gyros "think" you have told the heli to be on the angle it actually is as it lands (so they don't try to correct while it's not airborne).

So landing a FBL should be like landing a FB heli. It's flying till the blades stop. Only difference is that if you tell a FB heli to correct on the ground, then centre cyclic it will not continue to try correct. A FBL will perceive the command as an in-flight correction and continue to try get the heli to the desired angle (by moving cyclic servos). If you control it till the blades no longer have lift to tip-over, you should be fine.

Some micro FBL controllers switch off on TH. The 130x switches off after 4s. Check as to what switches your FBL on and off. Once a FBL is switched off, cyclic and rudder input "should" be passed though to the servos unhindered.

So:
1. Don't give cyclic inputs during take off (till light on skids at least) and landing (only stop once blades slow enough)
2. Mini auto it down (works fine, but control till blades slow enough).
3. Land and immediately hit TH (works fine, but control till blades slow enough).
4. Land but continue to fly the heli (well yes, but you may want to cut throttle to slow blades ).
5. Land but gradually reduce throttle (not required, will work, keep controlling).
6. Land and immediately give full negative pitch while zeroing throttle (Will work, slows blades quickly and pushed heli down, still control the cyclic till blade slow enough).


Hope this helps.

Some one correct me if I am mistaken.

[mcarter76]

Thanks for clearing that up. Now it's all starting to make sense. I still have this irrational fear that the heli will start spinning around wildly when I flip TH, but it seems like a necessity when landing properly. Maybe I need to practice some auto rotations. I can usually do them in the sim, but have not tried any in RL yet.

One question regarding beastx vs 3gx. Will the Microbeast (MB) handle any differently on the ground than the 3gx? I read that the 3gx has some instability in that regard, especially in the 2.X version. The main reason I'm switching is because the software didn't work and because I want to mount it vertically on the side of my frame to get at it more easily. That plus, there's no dependency on a PC for set up.

There are some pretty amazing videos of pros flying all of the leading FBL systems, so there's no doubt that all of them can be made to perform well, but I'd like to find one that works for me and doesn't have too steep of a learning curve. There is a also a video of a guy landing with the MB in all different kinds of approaches and nothing seems to throw it off. And for the price it seems like a deal.

[mcarter76]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Only difference is that if you tell a FB heli to correct on the ground, then centre cyclic it will not continue to try correct. A FBL will perceive the command as an in-flight correction and continue to try get the heli to the desired angle (by moving cyclic servos). If you control it till the blades no longer have lift to tip-over, you should be fine.

Yes that seems to be the misconception that bit me. I thought the flight was over, but the gyro did not agree. It thought I wanted to dig a ditch too.

[HeliSmith]

I'm flying the 3G still on my Align 550 it does have its occasional weird reaction when doing a sliding landing from an auto. Yesterday I brought it in fast sliding in it tried to dip right on me which I corrected with a little left cyclic and a small amount of negative, which ruined my slide as that stops the bird.. It's brakes

Haven't slid a BeastX but I bet it is like Vbar. With Vbar not only can I do a slide I can turn it sideways in the slide giving just a little opposing cyclic to keep it from tipping and it doesn't trip out at all.

One note I want to add is any flybarless unit subjected to vibrations is barely hanging on as it is. A helicopter on the ground reverberates the most so sometimes this is an indicator that you have a vibration in the frequency that messes with your sensors

[bladesr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9y_4...sdTQw&index=12

[mcarter76]

Thanks for all the help guys. After spending several days going through the beastx set up and really taking the time to understand each step and watching the instructional videos on HF... I did the first test hover at the field today and it was spot on. The microbeast is so much more stable than I had expected it would be. The winds were quite high this afternoon, and so I didn't get into doing FF flight but it will be fun to see how it handles.

The only mistake I made was installing some cheap 3D Pro blades in the interest of not sacrificing expensive 3G ones if it tipped over, but the blades were not balanced and so it never got off the ground with those and required 3G blades for proper balance. To my surprise the MB did not have any issues with landing at all and I hit TH right after touch down. Very comfortable.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

They are all right and all wrong.

The important point is to understand HOW a FBL works, then you will know WHY things happen. Then you can chose your own style of landing.
...
4. Land but continue to fly the heli (well yes, but you may want to cut throttle to slow blades ).
....

Originally Posted by mcarter76

Thanks for all the help guys.
...
To my surprise the MB did not have any issues with landing at all and I hit TH right after touch down. Very comfortable.

Glad it is working for you. Sounds like it all helped. Once used to FBL, you will probably not want to go back.

[racerjeffrc]

Originally Posted by bladesr

scared by flybarless takeoff ? - YouTube

Wow that was amazing aha

[clicky]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

1. Don't give cyclic inputs during take off (till light on skids at least) and landing (only stop once blades slow enough)

I think this is misconception and often makes people make mistakes like tipping helicopter over when having FBL controller.

Cyclic inputs are more than important at the spool up in FBL. Maybe not that needed at the moment of take off but in time that leads to it. So I would rather start with:

1. Spool up.
2. While still firmly on the ground, ensure that rotor disc is horizontal. This is crucial part. It is similar to HH tail gyro(*)
3. Take off keeping rotor disc horizontal (usually by not needing to touch cyclics since you have made it horizontal in previous step)
4. Fly

When landing - it is the same: make rotor disc horizontal. Land.

(*) with HH gyro we all learned to make tail neutral when taking off. If not it will try to return to position here heli was in when switched on (and if carried from the pits to the flight line it might have changed orientation). So I usually give a bit of left/right rudder to make it neutral (and stops pushing to one side). It is similar to rotor disc - I just wiggle cyclics a bit to ensure it is responding and then move it to horizontal position...

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

...
1. Don't give cyclic inputs during take off (till light on skids at least) and landing (only stop once blades slow enough)
...

Originally Posted by clicky

I think this is misconception and often makes people make mistakes like tipping helicopter over when having FBL controller.

Cyclic inputs are more than important at the spool up in FBL. Maybe not that needed at the moment of take off but in time that leads to it. So I would rather start with:

1. Spool up.
2. While still firmly on the ground, ensure that rotor disc is horizontal. This is crucial part. It is similar to HH tail gyro(*)
3. Take off keeping rotor disc horizontal (usually by not needing to touch cyclics since you have made it horizontal in previous step)
4. Fly
...

Clicky, this misses a bit of context.

My response was to the OP's original list (with some comments).

You are correct. You should "fly" the model (level the blades) as soon as the blades are fast enough to generate lift (not necessarily wait till the model is light or airborne). Using some neg collective to push the model into the ground may help with this.

The assumption is that the heli is level when the FBL controller is armed and also level when awaiting takeoff. In this case it's like the HH tail gyro being armed in the same direction as the model is facing when it first spools up. No corrections "should" be required.

With the 130x (and the drifting main board), you need to give cyclic input before takeoff to prevent tipover.

The caution with cyclic input before the blades generate lift is that the HH cyclic gyros can get in a feedback loop and once enough blade lift is established, the HH gyros think the model is well off attitude and try to quickly correct. Ideally if you can see the swash well enough, you can determine if this situation is occurring before blade lift is achieved and correct it (like fixing the tail direction if arming is a different direction to takeoff).

As I originally said "The important point is to understand HOW a FBL works, then you will know WHY things happen."


Hope this all makes sense.

[clicky]

You're definitively right. I just wanted to stress importance of that step. I've seen so many posts here where people followed 'don't give any cyclic input' to the letter and complained or just developed fear of FBL because of it not being quite correct (or better complete). Missing that first step 'level the disc' (*) can cause lots of issues in other, later steps.

(*) making disc horizontal for FBL controller is similar to giving a bit of right aileron immediately after take off for all 'regular' helicopters (with tail rotor). It becomes second nature to all of us and we stop seeing it as a step. But for beginners - it is important to recognise it.

As I said - I am just adding this step as explicit avoiding confusion for what is implicitly assumed in your (and many other posts dating even a couple or more years ago)

[mcarter76]

Thanks clicky, that is all very useful information. It also seems like the 3GX I had did not get set up correctly and or the roll rates were too high. If you can't control it in the air very well than it doesn't necessarily get easier to control on the ground right

That said it does seem like nerves are something I have to fight to fly well and my mCP X is helping with that part. One guy at the local club said he spent 6 months flying 450's and having all kinds of trouble with them, took a year off and then reentered the hobby to fly a 500 and 700 size Goblin. I asked if he was intimidated by the size and power of it, but he said no not really. I added that he must not be scared easily and he agreed. That really surprised me, especially since he has not been flying that long. He flies well enough, but I still make sure to keep my distance

I can hover my 500 and even fly around, but with only 4 or 5 months of experience, I'm keeping it put away and flying the 450 to hone my skills, not only because I'm afraid of damaging it, because it might hurt me or someone else if I lost orientation.

[mcarter76]

It's hard not be jealous of someone that can afford to fly a Goblin 700 and who isn't afraid of crashing it. To each his/her own though right. Update: Picked up a copy of Phoenix RC 4 at the hobby shop today and so now I'm able to fly the Goblin now too... woot.

[racerjeffrc]

Originally Posted by mcarter76

It's hard not be jealous of someone that can afford to fly a Goblin 700 and who isn't afraid of crashing it. To each his/her own though right. Update: Picked up a copy of Phoenix RC 4 at the hobby shop today and so now I'm able to fly the Goblin now too... woot.

How do u like it?

[mcarter76]

Originally Posted by racerjeffrc

How do u like it?

I really like it so far... and it's much better than ClearView. The Goblin 700 is very agile and seems to flip and roll almost effortlessly. The only thing about Phoenix is that a lot of the helis appear to fly slower than they would in RL, including the Goblin. I've seen people fly 700's and FF flight is very quick.

The one exception is the t-tex 450 pro 3g... which is super quick. The mini protos and protos 500 are also quick moving. Now this could be my perception of speed in the sim, and the flight speed is more accurate than it appears to be.

[blade450]

Just a tip...most heli's in Phoenix are default setup at 50% of what they are capable of according to Phoenix. If you go into the model menu, and click edit model or something like that, there should be a slider at 50%. Slide it to 100% and you should be having a helicopter that is faster.
I like to practice with the helicopter on 100% sometimes, teaches precision.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Relisys190]

Originally Posted by mcarter76

Yes that seems to be the misconception that bit me. I thought the flight was over, but the gyro did not agree. It thought I wanted to dig a ditch too.

Is this what happened to me tonight? I tried to maiden my 500 today in my drive way. Made the mistake of giving right elevator during spool up. Noticed it tipping and then I cut power but it continued to tip

;(. Two revolution blades toast

[ChasingTail]

Whats right elevator?