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Old 07-22-2016, 10:06 AM   #21
R_Lefebvre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflyr View Post
40 - 50A?????
A bit wasteful if you ask me.

It really is no big secret to get the gearing optimized.

As to payload current load...

Try slinging 30 lbs of lead under the frame along with the onboard cameras.
Pulling 38A

Been building long endurance camera ships for some time now.
It no big secret or magic to do.

The real trick is to get photos and video with no post production software.
Which is the path I took.
I hate having to fiddle with software in order to get presentable video.
So I work the mechanics to get clean raw footage.
While your experiments are interesting, we are producing systems designed for actual commercial/industrial usage.

I've only seen videos of your creations hovering in your back yard for short periods of time. My systems have demonstrated capability of flying 50km fully autonomously. You're right that getting the rotor speed right is not a big mystery. But the rotor speed you're using is not right for most usage. Not to mention I would estimate you are using twice the power, to fly about 50% more AUW, with a larger rotor disk, in ground effect. I really don't see anything special here.

And I don't really see any tricks here. My $600 RTF quadcopter takes better video.
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Old 07-22-2016, 01:47 PM   #22
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While your experiments are interesting, we are producing systems designed for actual commercial/industrial usage.

Well considering mine is for private hobby use, which happens to be the basis of this site.
Actual commercial/industrial usage hold no interest for me.


I've only seen videos of your creations hovering in your back yard for short periods of time.

That is your issue.
Sorry, I do not see the need to video a flight for that duration ( some may well find it boring)
Besides that, I'm more involved/concerned with flying than worrying about if the heli may or may not be in the field of view.


My systems have demonstrated capability of flying 50km fully autonomously.
To begin with "your systems"
You have made similar statements as "My", "I" giving the impression that you developed these systems.
You'll excuse me here but lets put the facts up ..
Your words here...
"I am a freelance programmer, who works on the Open Source Arducopter program, which runs on the Pixhawk (and on the APM). I'm just one part of a team of guys who do this."

So please dispel with the impression that your (by wording) deeply entrenched with the software and assume not too much with the hardware.
Being 50km and having a failure in flight is not something I care to think about.
There is no system anywhere, that is 100% protected from a electrical / mechanical fault.

Myself, I prefer to fly my machines and keep them with in eyesight.
Only need to park them when I see something interesting to photograph or take video of.


You're right that getting the rotor speed right is not a big mystery. But the rotor speed you're using is not right for most usage.

Exactly what usage might that be?
@ that speed I can easily lift every camera I own with no issue.
If I bump it up to 1000 -1100 She'll carry more than I could physically mount on it.


Not to mention I would estimate you are using twice the power, to fly about 50% more AUW, with a larger rotor disk, in ground effect. I really don't see anything special here.

Huh????
The bird AUW with cameras and batteries is 14 lbs.




I hover @ ~17A
I buzz around drawing ~15 -18A
Add on 30lbs of lead ( total AUW 44lbs), along with my camera payload current draw is ~38A
in hover.



Your math, my ESC logs and lead load seriously do not match your estimations


And I don't really see any tricks here.

The "trick" (BTW, which it isn't) is to get the mechanics correct and balanced.
Not having to rely on more external hardware and software.
( I so dislike post production involvement )

My $600 RTF quadcopter takes better video.

LOL, take off the gimbal, hard mount your camera and tell me that.

There is no QUAD on the market that I have seen, that without their stabilizing gimbal will produce clean raw video.
If you were to make that claim, you should bow your head in shame.
The fixed blade designs are inherent to vibration.
Riddle me this...
In order to pitch, yaw and roll.
It is required to speed up certain blades, while slowing down others.
All while they are all attached to single frame structure.
I my well not be Einstein, but it's kinda obvious that when 4 rotating blades spinning at different speeds that are attached to a singular frame in motion.
There's gonna be a really good chance something is gonna vibrate.
Unless of course you can say that the blades have some type of internal counter balancing mechanism to compensate.


I'll make it easy...
I've already shown raw unedited straight out of the onboard cameras that are hard mounted ( no gimbal or stabilization )
Post a video of "My $600 RTF quadcopter takes better video."
With
no gimbal or stabilization, hard mount the camera to the quads frame, do a side by side flight of this quad of yours, along with the raw footage from the unstabilized, hard camera mounted.
With no post production editing or clean up.
Then tell me yours takes better video.

I triple dog dare ya
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Old 07-22-2016, 05:27 PM   #23
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Most of this is not worth commenting on. Nobody is interested in your hard-mounted video solution. Using a bringer-of-death 1000 size helicopter to shakily lift a GoPro which could be better done with a nearly harmless 250 quad which was used to film this:


But just to get a few things straight:

Quote:
"I am a freelance programmer, who works on the Open Source Arducopter program, which runs on the Pixhawk (and on the APM). I'm just one part of a team of guys who do this."
I was the lead programmer on the Helicopter firmware for Ardupilot for 3 years until I resigned that position a few months ago to concentrate on my own helicopter system using the software.

Quote:
So please dispel with the impression that your (by wording) deeply entrenched with the software and assume not too much with the hardware.
Don't assume. I'm a mechanical engineer first. This is my company:

NOVAerial.com

and this is my helicopter I have designed and built and am bringing to market:

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Old 07-22-2016, 07:46 PM   #24
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Most of this is not worth commenting on.
I can only imagine why......
Nobody is interested in your hard-mounted video solution.
Interested or not....But I did prove it can be done quite easily.

Using a bringer-of-death 1000 size helicopter to shakily lift a GoPro
LMAO you are truly clueless, I'll put my " bringer-of-death 1000 size helicopter" up to anything you can manage to bring to the table and slap it silly..
BTW keep in mind, that
" bringer-of-death 1000 size helicopter" has been flying for the last 4 years. without a issue.
Not too shabby, considering it was designed and built on a kitchen table in spare time.

which could be better done with a nearly harmless 250 quad which was used to film this:


As I stated, match my mount with out having to rely on extra external hardware and see how well yours stand up.

But just to get a few things straight:

I was the lead programmer on the Helicopter firmware for Ardupilot for 3 years until I resigned that position a few months ago to concentrate on my own helicopter system using the software.
Hmmmm...
Perhaps my math is faulty here:


01-21-2014, 09:58 AM
#26 R_Lefebvre
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I'd like to make a few things clear. The Pixhawk is not my product, I had no hand in the creation of the hardware, and I am not an employee of 3DR. I am a freelance programmer, who works on the Open Source Arducopter program, which runs on the Pixhawk (and on the APM). I'm just one part of a team of guys who do this.

3 years being the lead programmer??? Not by my calculations @ the time you posted the above.
Wonder what Fred Astaire is coming.

Don't assume. I'm a mechanical engineer first. This is my company:

NOVAerial.com

and this is my helicopter I have designed and built and am bringing to market:



You resigned in order to design a helicopter?????
I guess I can't compare to that..
I only managed to build up my machines on my kitchen table in what spare time I had.

Sorry you'll need to step up your game a bit.
Mechanical Engineer ... Been there done that years ago

A helicopter you say?????

Try stepping up to my dance floor.
Retransmission / Navigation systems for naval and submarine




As I said ...
I triple dog dare ya.
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Old 07-22-2016, 08:47 PM   #25
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Awesome an Enginerd d!ck swinging contest on the interwebs! Can I get in on it? I've got plenty of self engineered self produced sh!t made in the spare bedroom(AKA "offfice"), kitchen table and garage.

Seriously guys...ease up a bit. This is a hobby site for the FUN side of these endeavors!

Can't we just be friends?
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Old 07-22-2016, 10:06 PM   #26
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Quote:
3 years being the lead programmer??? Not by my calculations @ the time you posted the above.
Wonder what Fred Astaire is coming.
What are you even talking about? How do you calculated a time period based on one date?
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Old 07-22-2016, 10:28 PM   #27
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Oh dear lord...
Let me do your math for you.
7-22-2016:
"I was the lead programmer on the Helicopter firmware for Ardupilot for 3 years until I resigned that position a few months ago
( nominal time span for a few (3) )

01-21-2014: Your quoted post where you state:
I am a freelance programmer, who works on the Open Source Arducopter program, which runs on the Pixhawk (and on the APM). I'm just one part of a team of guys who do this.

So given the present:

7-22-2016
Where you say: until I resigned that position a few months ago
That would put it somewhere in the time frame
approximately:
2-2016 - 4-2016
you resigned.
So...
01-21-2014: your original post,
07-22-2016, you state:"until I resigned that position a few months ago"
So that puts it approximately somewhere:03-2016 - 04-2016.
So according to your math:
From 01-21-2014 to 03-2016 is 3 years?
Nope, sorry...doesn't quite add up to 3 years as being a "lead programmer"
More like 2 or less, and I would seriously question the validity of that.
Have I missed something???? or perhaps you've developed some new basis of mathematics?

Considering your apparent shoddy mathematical skills..
I would be concerned that your Mechanical Engineering capabilities are on par' with your
mathematical skills.

I pride myself, on my math abilities ( pre-req for mechanical engineering) .

Now of course you'll come up with some snappy comeback to this, like:

Most of this is not worth commenting on
The reality is this:
What you believe is some innovative idea you are only now coming to see, was done long ago.
Your just catching up.
The real pity is your too ( pick your poison ) thick headed, stubborn, prideful to admit when it's put right in front of you.

Next time you wish to try to belittle or foolishly attempt to discredit a person.
First off, make dam sure you have your facts and figures straight.
Also be able to conduct yourself with some form of credence and not pose as one describe situation only to be shown ( by your own postings) to be somewhat of a different color.

I'll leave it at this:




And to Stmpngrnd:
That was not even close to a "
Enginerd d!ck swinging contest "

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Old 07-23-2016, 12:31 AM   #28
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And what makes you conclude I wasn't lead helicopter developer when I wrote that in 2014? Do you know how any of this works?

Better pic that mic back up.
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Old 07-23-2016, 01:05 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
And what makes you conclude I wasn't lead helicopter developer when I wrote that in 2014? Do you know how any of this works?

Better pic that mic back up.
Naaaaa,
Proved my point.
Besides, if you were a lead programmer your ego would have you posting that all over helifreak.

" what makes you conclude I wasn't lead helicopter developer"
Gheez, you must love punishment
Perhaps this:

" So *if* the hardware were to not function properly, it's really got very little to do with me. I actually haven't even flown a Pixhawk on a heli yet."
Doesn't sound like much of a lead helicopter developer to me.

Besides that: then your saying you were a lead longer than 3 years according to your math, but that is in direct contradiction to your previous statements.
Which would mean, you were a lead when you stated:
I am a freelance programmer,
who works on the Open Source Arducopter program I'm just one part of a team of guys who do this.
Never any mention of being a lead of any sorts neither software or helicopter developer.
I find that disturbingly odd, this path you've laid out shows no signs of linear continuity.
Just to clarify...
Is it a lead software developer or lead helicopter developer????
(can't wait to see the response to that)

Just a suggestion here:
Stop, just stop ...
At this point your embarrassing yourself.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:39 AM   #30
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You're rambling. Feel free to check my claims with anybody else in the team. Your main argument appears to be that because I didn't brag about somethign, it must not be true. That's an interesting thought that speaks volumes about society these days doesn't it.

If you are capable of stringing together a coherent thought and would like to ask a straight question, I'd be happy to answer.

In the meantime, our github repository is here. It's go everything you need to check my facts. Fill yer boots.

https://github.com/ArduPilot/ardupilot
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Old 07-23-2016, 09:25 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
You're rambling. Feel free to check my claims with anybody else in the team. Your main argument appears to be that because I didn't brag about somethign, it must not be true. That's an interesting thought that speaks volumes about society these days doesn't it.

If you are capable of stringing together a coherent thought and would like to ask a straight question, I'd be happy to answer.

In the meantime, our github repository is here. It's go everything you need to check my facts. Fill yer boots.

https://github.com/ArduPilot/ardupilot
No need to...
As to "rambling"
I coherently proved my position ( simple math is quite enlightening )
As to:
"Your main argument appears to be that because I didn't brag about somethign, it must not be true."
Foolish, foolish person...
You can not even admit that the proof put forth ( which came from you BTW )
Leaves something to be questioned.

Sorry, but trying to twist your position and change your point of the debate around in an attempt to discredit what I put on the table isn't going to work.

You dug your own hole and jumped head first into it.
Don't be trying to have a go at me, just because I noticed the inconsistencies in you claims and brought it to light.

Though I will say this ...
You are consistent.
In the past, you have this habit of confronting people whose thoughts and /or ideas do not coincide with yours.
You immediately attempt to disclaim what they have shown and proved.
I've watched this happen for some time.
But I am a patient man and believe..
Give a person enough rope and they will surely hang themselves.

As I previously said:
Your playing catch up.
What you claim as revelations has been done.
Hour flight times.....
That was accomplished already.
Let me use your own words again:
" Your main argument appears to be that because I didn't brag about somethign, it must not be true."
Been there, done it.. but read your own words above.

Concerning this:
"Feel free to check my claims with anybody else in the team."
If you can not be consistent in your claims posted here, why would anyone bother?
This does not work retroactively.
Your credence is only as good as to the consistency of your facts stated.
And ....
" That's an interesting thought that speaks volumes about society these days doesn't it."

Modern times...
I came from an era when a mans word and a hand shake was all that were ever needed.
Thank heaven that I don't need to deal with what is now.
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Old 07-23-2016, 10:37 AM   #32
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All the info you need is available on Github. If you're really an engineer, you will be able to figure it out yourself. I think your main issue is that you don't understand how open source software projects work.

To everybody else, sorry, had a bad yesterday and was in a bad mood. Never should have engaged with this trolling.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:26 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre View Post
All the info you need is available on Github. If you're really an engineer, you will be able to figure it out yourself. I think your main issue is that you don't understand how open source software projects work.

To everybody else, sorry, had a bad yesterday and was in a bad mood. Never should have engaged with this trolling.
You now call me a troll??? Oh my....
Trying to regain the moral high ground by apologizing and attempting to flip this back on to me.
Again... doing your Fred Astaire ...( quite poorly I might add)
I could not care less how open source software projects work.
I simply called you on the facts you posted verses what you claim as fact.
And guess what the two do not equal out.
Go back and read.....
Now I'll call as it is.
You posted, in a very specific time line your credence.
When that was proven questionable and confronted with the facts, you twist things around in an attempt to bail yourself out.

When you fail at that, you change your tack.... your only recourse is to attempt to put up a smoke screen.

You were in a bad mood yesterday simply because, you were called out on your stated facts.
When you could not disprove them, and obviously avoided them, you attempt to claim me as a troll in the end.

You've shown that when confronted and have no way out, you'll attempt to discredit another.
You may try to side step your way out, but be aware..
Your not that good.
Fain the tack your being trolled.
Anyone with a brain cell will come to the same conclusions given the facts presented in front of them.

There's an old saying:
"If you can't dazzle em' with the brilliance, baffle em' with the BS" .
From where I'm sitting, you failed miserably at both.

Now..

And kicked out the window and to the curb.
You sir, are some piece of work.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:06 PM   #34
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Back to your corners guys!

As an impartial observer it is clear this IS trolling and d!ck swinging by both of you. Night you started it by oh so subtle yet deliberately stepping to the plate with your amp draw boasting.

Both you guys are doing good work in an area of remote aerial imaging that the mainstream has flung out the window for the today's trendy new hotness. I'm a big fan of anyone how is helping keep heli's relevant and pushing their capabilities forward. But fighting each other is just f#cking childish.

Save this energy and knowledge for the next great debate sure to be brought up again that multirotors wipe the floor with helis. Come another month there will be a hundred thousand newly minted commercial drone pilots all swinging in their minds bigger d!cks and flossing their 3months of experience flying an Inspire1 eager to spend $8k on motors,escs & props to lift a camera for 11mintues.
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Old 07-23-2016, 01:44 PM   #35
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Yep, you're right Eric. You know what my credentials are, as does anybody who actually looks into it. I'm not too concerned if nightflyr doesn't.

The basic math is:

Procyon is hovering about 100-105 W/kg.

nightflyer's machine, assuming it's running 12S, 17.5A, and 14lbs, is hovering at about 132 W/kg. It's good, but not not really fantastic. His Figure of Merit is probably quite a bit lower than mine. He could probably run the rotor even slower. With the 32lb payload, he's at 91 W/kg, which is pretty good but not surprising considering the disk loading, his Figure of Merit will have gone up. There's no magic here.
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:43 PM   #36
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"assuming it's running 12S"

6S @ 17.5A
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Old 07-23-2016, 07:32 PM   #37
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Huh, that's strange that your Power (W) on the graph that you showed is indicating about 750-800W. At 17.5A, your voltage would have to be 46V.

That's pretty high voltage for a 6S battery.
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Old 07-23-2016, 08:04 PM   #38
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Huh, that's strange that your Power (W) on the graph that you showed is indicating about 750-800W. At 17.5A, your voltage would have to be 46V.

That's pretty high voltage for a 6S battery.


One bank of batteries to the ESC shown above.



The other bank for on board electronics ( 2 BEC's 1 voltage regulator) and cameras.

The original motor was a 630 Kv
Main gear was a stock164T / Pinion 10T. = 16.4 GR
When the stock main gear failed, a 117T FAD MOD1 was installed with a 10T pinion.
Along with a 5020-450Kv motor in order to maintain an equivalent drive train.
630Kv X 44.4V / 16.4GR = ~ 1705.6 HS @100%
450Kv X 44.4V / 11.7GR = ~ 1707.6 HS @100%
In either case this would mean running throttle @ less than 50% to spin 800 HS, which would over heat the Castle ESC.
Look at the log, temps are consistently below 120*F (48.9C)
@ 6S
630Kv X 22.2V / 16.4 = 853.8 HS @100% throttle.
450Kv X 22.2V / 11.7 = 852.8 HS @ 100% throttle.
In turn has the ESC running at its most efficient.
Which is why it is running cool as it is.
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Old 07-23-2016, 10:43 PM   #39
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Huh, weird that Castle would screw up so badly on their Watts datalog.

Is this the 1000mm blades? I wonder if you figure of merit has gone over 100%.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:31 PM   #40
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Software glitch I would guess.
Or perhaps because is set to see 12S in setup and running on 6S it defaults to calculate wattage by reading amperage and what the S factor is set at.
Something akin to when some cars lose their crank sensor and the system computer defaults to using the cam sensor in order to keep the engine running... in such cases most cars will lose the function of their tachometers.
Just a guess, mechanical is my specialty.
Castles do very odd and quirky things at times.
My primary concern was ESC temps and RPM.

Those numbers are fairly consistent for the 900's and 1000's
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