My warp is way too tail heavy

[KiloXray]

I'm not actually flying mine yet, but I have an 1800mah Turnigy pack that balances the heli perfectly.

This is with an AR7200BX and a Castle Talon 35 up front.

[taosgraveyard]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Barrett

I'm running the 1300's in my Warp 360 and they actually balance CG perfectly. I had to turn the pack so that the battery connectors were facing into the frame and put it about 1-2 inches forward.

I have a Castle Ice Lite 50, WR Super Mini BEC G2 and a BD-3X mounted up front as well.

How are you testing the CG?

Like I always do, I hang the Heli with the head removed, hanging it on a loop of wire through the head bolt hole in the main shaft, With a digital level on the end of the top of the main shaft.

I think that's pretty accurate way to do it

As I said, with the BEC on there, Mine balances, my ESC is probably lighter, don't know ( YGE 45)

[taosgraveyard]

Originally Posted by Ah Clem

My batteries are mounted in the same manner as in Bob O's second photograph.

I have no balance issues on my Warp.

I did go ahead and move the canopy forward with the extended lower canopy mount (also drilled a second set of holes in the canopy), but did have OK CG before doing this.

As far as the tail shaft diameter being considered too large, the beefier the better, IMHO.

Yes it's hard to imagine bending the tail shaft as easily as on some other 450 helis.

[Jeff_Barrett]

You go way further than I do for CG ... lol ... don't get too hung up. I've seen guys go nuts with their pitch guages when trying to adjust their collective and cyclic pitch and drive themselves mad.

I use the same method that Dave Ketelhut and many other team pilots use:

Dave Ketelhut Talks COG Compass Warp360 (1 min 52 sec)

[taosgraveyard]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Barrett

You go way further than I do for CG ... lol ... don't get too hung up. I've seen guys go nuts with their pitch guages when trying to adjust their collective and cyclic pitch and drive themselves mad.

I use the same method that Dave Ketelhut and many other team pilots use:

Dave Ketelhut Talks COG Compass Warp360 - YouTube

Thanks. I've built a couple of helicopters and have tried every method I have ever seen on this board.

I'm happy with the way I do it. Takes me all of a minute to hang it, and no longer than any other way to finish balancing it. ( remove canopy, move battery install canopy, repeat. )

I don't understand your relating head setup to leveling a Heli. Is your point that a digital pitch gauge is overkill for either task?

If so, that's true, but I also prefer a digital pitch gauge for head setup

I neither "go mad" or "get hung up" when setting up a Heli, I've done more than a couple, it goes very fast for me

[Bob O]

I think all Jeff meant was there's no need to over-complicate things or take measurements to the umpteenth degree in order to get it right.

[Jeff_Barrett]

Originally Posted by taosgraveyard

Thanks. I've built a couple of helicopters and have tried every method I have ever seen on this board.

I don't understand your relating head setup to leveling a Heli. Is your point that a digital pitch gauge is overkill for either task?

If so, that's true, but I also prefer a digital pitch gauge for head setup

I neither "go mad" or "get hung up" when setting up a Heli, I've done more than a couple, it goes very fast for me

Originally Posted by Bob O

I think all Jeff meant was there's no need to over-complicate things or take measurements to the umpteenth degree in order to get it right.

I know you have, you've been around as long as I have, maybe even longer from the old 4G6 days. I wasn't inferring that you don't know how to check CG on your model.

Bob hit the nail on the head ...

All I was trying to say is that with precise tools like the digital pitch gauge, we can sometimes over complicate something.

If it works for you, that's great ... for me though, I would drive myself crazy doing the CG that way because I tend to hyper-focus (ADD) and have a hard time not seeing something 'perfect'. I'm kind of nutty like that.

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by velocity90

By buying the lipo that was specifically made for it. 1600 gens

1300 is simply too light. 1600 is spot on and even those need to mount foreword.

That's pretty interesting.

The Gens Ace 6S 1600 40c (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "gens" but I could be wrong) is listed as 104*34*35 mm with a weight of 282 g.

http://www.gensace.de/lipo-battery/h...tery-pack.html

I found some listed at 268 g but in either case the stated maximum weight is exceeded.

The Compass manual specifies, in the case of a 6S battery, anywhere from 1,200 to 1,800 mah with a weight of 230 - 260g! (the exclamation point is from page 7 of their manual.

So, what I'm wondering is how a battery with a weight 22 (or 8) grams heavier than what Compass shows as a maximum weight (complete with explanation point) could possibly have been specifically made for it? If something is specifically made for something else shouldn't it comply with the specs?

Or is the manual in error?

Or are you perhaps referring to a battery other than the GA 282 / 268g?

I'd gotten in trouble before by blindly following the manual but I didn't realize the battery specs were messed up as well.

[Tachead]

Originally Posted by Hawk404

That's pretty interesting.

The Gens Ace 6S 1600 40c (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "gens" but I could be wrong) is listed as 104*34*35 mm with a weight of 282 g.

http://www.gensace.de/lipo-battery/h...tery-pack.html

I found some listed at 268 g but in either case the stated maximum weight is exceeded.

The Compass manual specifies, in the case of a 6S battery, anywhere from 1,200 to 1,800 mah with a weight of 230 - 260g! (the exclamation point is from page 7 of their manual.

So, what I'm wondering is how a battery with a weight 22 (or 8) grams heavier than what Compass shows as a maximum weight (complete with explanation point) could possibly have been specifically made for it? If something is specifically made for something else shouldn't it comply with the specs?

Or is the manual in error?

Or are you perhaps referring to a battery other than the GA 282 / 268g?

I'd gotten in trouble before by blindly following the manual but I didn't realize the battery specs were messed up as well.

I run the Gensace 1600mah 40C Warp 360 packs as well. They are specifically made for the Warp by Gensace and mine weigh between 277-279grams(I have 5 of them).

You have to understand that RC helicopter manuals are just a loose guideline. Different components and setups are used and new things come out all the time. Not to mention updates are released on models to fix teething issues exc. On the Warp in particular, a bunch on new parts have been revised and changed including the aluminum tail case plates, CNC delrin and aluminum tail arm holder, extended canopy mount, exc. All of these changes happened after the manual was written. And, all of these things change the balance of a heli. COG is something that needs to be figured out by each individual customer depending on their component and setup choices, component mounting/location choices, canopy position, exc.

I can tell you that I get perfect COG with these packs and built my heli to ensure that. I suggest you pick a lipo to use and setup your model to achieve COG. This is the same with every model from any company. You have to both pick a compatible pack size for the heli and choose and mount your components in a way to achieve COG.

There is no perfect pack size for any model.

[waxman]

Since the release of the warp the tail weight has increased by quite a bit so your lighter packs just don't do the trick any more.. The Gens 1600mah packs are meant to give you a easy solution for CG issues.

The pulse ultra 1350's are 262g and with the canopy in the standard position i still have to move the pack forward to get correct CG. So for the small increase in weight for the Gens 1600's you would get perfect cg, and longer flight times. Also the packs wont be worked as hard so will last a hell of a lot longer.

But i agree with Jeff, you don't really have to over think these things, i have often setup a heli without any tooling for measurement, i can get the swash level enough just by eye, setting 0 pitch by folding the blades together, then collective and cyclic i adjust by feel when flying. And guess what it works fine. If i was doing precision flight, 3d masters etc i would put in a little more effort but i fly because i enjoy flying not because i enjoy making everything perfect in the setup. Less bench time more flight time.

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Tachead

I run the Gensace 1600mah 40C Warp 360 packs as well. They are specifically made for the Warp by Gensace and mine weigh between 277-279grams(I have 5 of them).

You have to understand that RC helicopter manuals are just a loose guideline. Different components and setups are used and new things come out all the time. Not to mention updates are released on models to fix teething issues exc. On the Warp in particular, a bunch on new parts have been revised and changed including the aluminum tail case plates, CNC delrin and aluminum tail arm holder, extended canopy mount, exc. All of these changes happened after the manual was written. And, all of these things change the balance of a heli. COG is something that needs to be figured out by each individual customer depending on their component and setup choices, component mounting/location choices, canopy position, exc.

I can tell you that I get perfect COG with these packs and built my heli to ensure that. I suggest you pick a lipo to use and setup your model to achieve COG. This is the same with every model from any company. You have to both pick a compatible pack size for the heli and choose and mount your components in a way to achieve COG.

There is no perfect pack size for any model.

The manual as rough guideline was something I was not aware of early on but it's becoming more and more apparent as time goes on.

So the (or one of the) more appropriate batteries comes with a weight that's specifically verbotten by the manual. I shouldn't be surprised by that anymore but it still catches me off guard.

Granted this is only the latest in a long accumulation of evidence convincing me manuals should, in large part, be ignored but it is perhaps one of the more notable. Simply because the heli manufacturer states a number as a maximum, a battery supplier ignores it and sells the product based on it's being "specifically designed for the product". In more mainstream areas of endeavor this would not happen without giving the corporate lawyers apoplexy.



@waxman: I gather that tail parts have changed since my Warp but wasn't aware they had grown heavier in the process. Still, didn't the tail boom shrink at the same time? A shorter tail boom should negate some additional weight at the end - if I'm remembering good old Archimedes correctly.

[Tachead]

Originally Posted by Hawk404

The manual as rough guideline was something I was not aware of early on but it's becoming more and more apparent as time goes on.

So the (or one of the) more appropriate batteries comes with a weight that's specifically verbotten by the manual. I shouldn't be surprised by that anymore but it still catches me off guard.

Granted this is only the latest in a long accumulation of evidence convincing me manuals should, in large part, be ignored but it is perhaps one of the more notable. Simply because the heli manufacturer states a number as a maximum, a battery supplier ignores it and sells the product based on it's being "specifically designed for the product". In more mainstream areas of endeavor this would not happen without giving the corporate lawyers apoplexy.



@waxman: I gather that tail parts have changed since my Warp but wasn't aware they had grown heavier in the process. Still, didn't the tail boom shrink at the same time? A shorter tail boom should negate some additional weight at the end - if I'm remembering good old Archimedes correctly.

You have to understand man, too many new components, updates, and upgrades come out all the time for manufactures to keep up. At one time, when the manual first came out, the info in it was probably spot on but, a lot has changed since then. And, I know they should update it I suppose but, it just doesn't happen in this hobby. I think it would simply be to expensive and time consuming doing constant updates, for every little thing, to the manual because of how fast things change in this hobby. It would just drive the cost of our over priced models up even further. But, you have a network of dealers and reps on here and readily available through phone and email as well as all the normal people(fellow helifreaks) happy to help so, it really isn't that big of an issue. Just ask questions and do research before you buy and build a model and all of us will be more then happy to help you out

Yes, the tail parts have changed as well as other parts. And, yes they have got heavier. As for the boom, it has got larger and heavier from my understanding. I am not sure if it was shortened but, it has had its sidewalls thickened from 0.3 - 0.4mm which adds a fair amount of weight to it but, also greatly strengthens it.

All of these changes have came out since the model came out so it has changed things quite a bit. Keep in mind too that Compass offered all these updated parts free of charge to their customers. This is super nice and differs from how a lot of other companies handle issues. Some never fix their problems and just release a new model down the road, some leave the fixes to aftermarket companies, and some even charge for the updated parts. Compass takes good care of their customers and their dealer/rep network is always there to help even if their manuals and manual updating leaves a bit to be desired. And, they just fly great once you get them flying and balanced

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Tachead

You have to understand man, too many new components, updates, and upgrades come out all the time for manufactures to keep up. At one time, when the manual first came out, the info in it was probably spot on but, a lot has changed since then. And, I know they should update it I suppose but, it just doesn't happen in this hobby. I think it would simply be to expensive and time consuming doing constant updates, for every little thing, to the manual because of how fast things change in this hobby. It would just drive the cost of our over priced models up even further. But, you have a network of dealers and reps on here and readily available through phone and email as well as all the normal people(fellow helifreaks) happy to help so, it really isn't that big of an issue. Just ask questions and do research before you buy and build a model and all of us will be more then happy to help you out

Yes, the tail parts have changed as well as other parts. And, yes they have got heavier. As for the boom, it has got larger and heavier from my understanding. I am not sure if it was shortened but, it has had its sidewalls thickened from 0.3 - 0.4mm which adds a fair amount of weight to it but, also greatly strengthens it.

All of these changes have came out since the model came out so it has changed things quite a bit. Keep in mind too that Compass offered all these updated parts free of charge to their customers. This is super nice and differs from how a lot of other companies handle issues. Some never fix their problems and just release a new model down the road, some leave the fixes to aftermarket companies, and some even charge for the updated parts. Compass takes good care of their customers and their dealer/rep network is always there to help even if their manuals and manual updating leaves a bit to be desired. And, they just fly great once you get them flying and balanced

There is no doubt a great deal of assistance available online and from the dealers.

But I'm of an age when there was no internet and if the manual was defective the build resulting from it would also be defective. So I guess I'm more used to the things being usable for the purpose intended than what is expected in 2014.

I would, however, have to question the idea that keeping them updated would represent something costly. In fact, between electronic distribution and the ease of editing a PDF document, I would suppose there's little cheaper than updating a manual. 99% of the cost in updating a manual is printing it - any they're no longer printed - hence the cost to update is now a mere fraction of what it once was. I guess from one standpoint there's really no excuse to not keep it updated and from another standpoint there's no point in keeping it updated as nobody reads them anyway.

I'm not criticizing their policy on the matter but it would almost seem that it's preferable to not have a manual at all rather than to have one that should not be followed.

It is admirable that Compass provided free updated parts but they're still a business and have to draw the line somewhere. So there will be no free metal tail cases, shortened booms, canopy extension gizmos, 14T tail gears etc.

The tail boom has been shortened - see here for pictures:

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=25

It remains a mystery exactly when it was shortened - sometime after it was thickened but prior to January of this year.

[Jeff_Barrett]

It was shortened because some people complained the belt was on the tight side even with it completely forward in the mounting block.

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Barrett

It was shortened because some people complained the belt was on the tight side even with it completely forward in the mounting block.

I was one of them. And, being my first tail belt, what should have screamed "too tight" at me was shrugged off as "it's per the manual". I think you could pluck the tail belt like a banjo and sing deliverance.

At least I'm assuming it was too tight if it jumped the pulley once then followed up by blowing out the tail case bearings because the side plates were pulled out of parallel thus loading the bearings in a manner never dreamed of by their designers. I didn't notice the out of parallel condition until after it had worked its magic.

That was back when I took manuals as the given word - I've evolved since then (and gotten happy with a couple other tail belts). But I sometimes still wonder if manuals shouldn't be either accurate or non-existent. A middle ground where some parts are right and others are better avoided is confusing.

[Jeff_Barrett]

I personally didn't have that issue, but I did have a few people tell me that they felt theirs was too tight.

I really couldn't tell if yours was too tight or not without actually feeling it, but I trust that it was based on what you're telling me. Some guys simply grinding a bit more out of the slot in the tail boom that the nub in the block would align with.

It's a constantly evolving hobby ... manuals are being updated for several of the models BTW.

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Barrett

I personally didn't have that issue, but I did have a few people tell me that they felt theirs was too tight.

I really couldn't tell if yours was too tight or not without actually feeling it, but I trust that it was based on what you're telling me. Some guys simply grinding a bit more out of the slot in the tail boom that the nub in the block would align with.

It's a constantly evolving hobby ... manuals are being updated for several of the models BTW.

There are several threads here detailing the grinding process and this would have no doubt been preferable to what I actually did.

Part of why I still haunt the Warp forum is that it provides more intriguing mysteries than any other that I have visited. For almost every issue brought up there's folks that will state they didn't have the issue.

With a fixed tail belt length, fixed frame pattern, fixed gear sizes and fixed boom length this isn't physically possible. The only explanation is that various configurations of the kit were shipping simultaneously. Thanks to the good folks posting pics of the booms side-by-side that mystery was solved.

That is perhaps the sad underbelly of numerous slipstream changes. Those willing to offer help can only speculate as to what's going on as tail boom length is undocumented. In fact, it's so undocumented I've sometimes wondered if it wasn't a state secret. While you knew about it one other distributor told me he'd never heard of it. Simultaneously, other sub-assemblies are mutating and shifting such that one set of parts falls together nicely while another set can't even be made into a helicopter without breaking out a Dremel and reciprocating file.

Hence there will be a number of queries describing an issue with quite honest responses saying "I don't have that issue" which leads one to the conclusion that two different configurations are being observed - perhaps profoundly different configurations. Most recently this includes a battery which, according to the manual, would result in a tail-light CoG issue.

[Jeff_Barrett]

It's hard to say ... that said, it's of paramount importance that we get the folks experiencing issues looked after.

There are literally thousands of these kits out there now, and for every person that posts on here that they've had an issue, there are many more who either haven't had an issue, or haven't reported it.

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Jeff_Barrett

It's hard to say ... that said, it's of paramount importance that we get the folks experiencing issues looked after.

There are literally thousands of these kits out there now, and for every person that posts on here that they've had an issue, there are many more who either haven't had an issue, or haven't reported it.

True that.

I have sometimes suggested that the Warp isn't intended as one's first non-BNF - especially if one is intending to make use of the manual or has never once assembled a tail belt and has no context for "too tight".

I'd tend to agree about the non-reports because the old-timers will just deal with it. The fact that another distributor was unaware of there even being an issue struck me as interesting. It had to have been reported in substantial numbers if a change was made - the puzzling part was in the change being made unbeknownst to the dealers. And, being undocumented, there was no way of knowing what one would get without buying it first.

Occam's razor suggests that the most logical surmise is that two or more lengths of booms were being shipped from the onset as there's no other way that some could be too long while others weren't -- assuming all other dimensions were fixed. Mathematics simply doesn't allow for another option. Compass eventually shortens the thing and it could still have a substantial margin of error as, by all reports, they were in no danger of getting complaints that they were too short. But it probably took far longer than it should have.

Compass has an excellent record of responding to field reports but they can't respond to issues they don't know about.

Perhaps I just need to get one from Canada where I've heard at least one dealer wouldn't mind opening the box to verify all the latest stuff is in there or at least that it doesn't contain some unfortunate combination of stuff that can't work together?

After the X5, though.

[Jeff_Barrett]

Originally Posted by Hawk404

IThe fact that another distributor was unaware of there even being an issue struck me as interesting.

There is only one distributor for all of North America. Or did you mean dealer? Not all dealers are equal when it comes to knowledge of the products they carry and sell.

One of the reasons for my narrow product offerings is that it allows me to fly everything I handle and have intimate knowledge of the model / product.

Originally Posted by Hawk404

Perhaps I just need to get one from Canada where I've heard at least one dealer wouldn't mind opening the box to verify all the latest stuff is in there or at least that it doesn't contain some unfortunate combination of stuff that can't work together?

After the X5, though.