Half Piro Flip question

[Angelo A]

Originally Posted by newbheliusr

Time is your friend. Just keep at it.

Heard that! I'm going to continue to work my butt off on the sim all winter and get as much stick time as I can once the weather warms up again!

[kc8qpu]

Here is a video that really nailed the piro flip for me.

piro flips (7 min 13 sec)

One thing I learned is it is important to control your piros both upright and inverted. One thing that will help you is trying to piro and move around while piroing.

[ryguy76]

Ok, so I've been practicing the other portion of the half piro flip from inverted back to upright, and today I just started joint the two together. Have a look at the attached vid of my progress for you comments and feedback.

The thing I know I need to work on is better collective management as I tend to drift, which I think is due to more collective than I need, but it's coming.

Thoughts?

[Twill]

Looks good just need to get the noise facing ya before the flip back over.

[ryguy76]

Originally Posted by Twill

Looks good just need to get the noise facing ya before the flip back over.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean if we're only talking half piro flips. Or do you mean that a inverted half piro should be done before starting the next half piro flip?

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ryguy76

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean if we're only talking half piro flips. Or do you mean that a inverted half piro should be done before starting the next half piro flip?

I think this is the old debate of what is a piro-flip and what is a half piro-flip.

Some say for a piro-flip you need 360 degrees of tail rotation per 180 degrees of rotor plane rotation (ie. upright to inverted or inverted to upright). Others say you need only 180 degrees of tail rotation per 180 degrees of rotor plane rotation.

The FAI regulations state for a triple pirouetting flip, NO LESS than 1 tail rotation (360 degrees) per full flip (upright to upright) and NO MORE than 3 tail rotations (1080 degrees) per full flip (and 3 must be done in a row).

If you flip a tail-in heli over the nose from upright to invert, the nose is pointing toward you. If you spin 180 degrees while doing this, the tail will be pointing at you (not the nose). If you complete the move to upright spinning the tail only 180 degrees for each half-flip of the rotor (360 degrees, tail pointing at you upright and inverted), some call this a half-prio flip. I call it a piro-flip (as it meets the minimum definition laid down by FAI).

For me a half a prio-flip is from rotor upright to rotor inverted and tail spinning 180 degrees or more (ie. tail-in to tail-in). Other will say a half a prio-flip is from rotor upright to rotor inverted and tail spinning 360 degrees or more (ie. tail-in to nose-in), as for them a prio-flip is 720 degrees tail rotation or more.

To progress from 360 tail piro-flips to 720 tail prio-flips is a little more practice as the tail spins faster and the corrections (aileron and elevator) are smaller and faster. Once you get the basic 360/360 piro-flip, you have the foundation for the 720/360 piro-flip (just do more of the same).

P.S. They are also great transition moves

[Twill]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

I think this is the old debate of what is a piro-flip and what is a half piro-flip.

Some say for a piro-flip you need 360 degrees of tail rotation per 180 degrees of rotor plane rotation (ie. upright to inverted or inverted to upright). Others say you need only 180 degrees of tail rotation per 180 degrees of rotor plane rotation.

The FAI regulations state for a triple pirouetting flip, NO LESS than 1 tail rotation (360 degrees) per full flip (upright to upright) and NO MORE than 3 tail rotations (1080 degrees) per full flip (and 3 must be done in a row).

If you flip a tail-in heli over the nose from upright to invert, the nose is pointing toward you. If you spin 180 degrees while doing this, the tail will be pointing at you (not the nose). If you complete the move to upright spinning the tail only 180 degrees for each half-flip of the rotor (360 degrees, tail pointing at you upright and inverted), some call this a half-prio flip. I call it a piro-flip (as it meets the minimum definition laid down by FAI).

For me a half a prio-flip is from rotor upright to rotor inverted and tail spinning 180 degrees or more (ie. tail-in to tail-in). Other will say a half a prio-flip is from rotor upright to rotor inverted and tail spinning 360 degrees or more (ie. tail-in to nose-in), as for them a prio-flip is 720 degrees tail rotation or more.

To progress from 360 tail piro-flips to 720 tail prio-flips is a little more practice as the tail spins faster and the corrections (aileron and elevator) are smaller and faster. Once you get the basic 360/360 piro-flip, you have the foundation for the 720/360 piro-flip (just do more of the same).

P.S. They are also great transition moves

Exactly


Team aircapitalheli.com

[ryguy76]

Thanks Archmage...

So basically it comes down to one's thinking about the definition of "Half."

One group says that half is defined by what's been accomplished at the inverted point, while the other group says it's defined by what's been done in comparison to a full (and normal) 720 tail rotation at the end of the move.

I was thinking of it this way. If I did a video of me just going from upright tail-in, to inverted tail-in, (180 tail rotation), and the video stopped there, that would be half of a "half piro flip," (as I guess I define a full piro flip to be at least 360 degrees between upright to inverted). If I finish the move and end up back at upright tail-in, and have done another 180 tail rotation for a total of 360 degrees, that's what I'd call a full "half piro flip," where the term half come from only accomplishing half a 360 before hitting inverted.

If a video was done from upright tail-in, to inverted nose-in, (360 tail rotation), that would be what I call a half of a "piro flip" and would still require the same flip ratio to return to upright before I called it a full "piro flip."

I get what you're saying and that my last vid is a "single pirouette piro flip."

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ryguy76

Thanks Archmage...

So basically it comes down to one's thinking about the definition of "Half."
...
I get what you're saying and that my last vid is a "single pirouette piro flip."

Exactly.

Nomenclature is so important. It ensures we all talk the same language

[LoveToFly1]

Originally Posted by Angelo A

One of the problems I have is the collective input during the continuation from inverted to upright again.

I have watched the smacktalk video as well as Nick's video several times each and I totally get the concept, but man is it tough. Any thoughts on exercises to help with collective management during these maneuvers? I can roll and flip stationary easily, it's the rudder input that throws me all off I guess.

yes I have one. a local pro pilot and Nick himself both told me to work on this:

a continuous forward flip. with no tail rotation at all, just elevator down front roll. constantly. this will help you with your collective keeping the heli in one spot. I cant do it worth a crap right now. I am still working on it every day. once you master that, you should be able to do the same constant left and right rolls too. that's where your collective "sweet spot" will be. granted, as close as we can get our models to our real life helis, they are always slightly different. so don't forget that and get so comfortable that you put one in the ground the first time in real life. lol

[kc8qpu]

If you do it right you won't use any collective to do the flip at all. Collective should be used just to control direction and altitude. But only while upright or inverted.

[Angelo A]

Originally Posted by LoveToFly1

yes I have one. a local pro pilot and Nick himself both told me to work on this:

a continuous forward flip. with no tail rotation at all, just elevator down front roll. constantly. this will help you with your collective keeping the heli in one spot. I cant do it worth a crap right now. I am still working on it every day. once you master that, you should be able to do the same constant left and right rolls too. that's where your collective "sweet spot" will be. granted, as close as we can get our models to our real life helis, they are always slightly different. so don't forget that and get so comfortable that you put one in the ground the first time in real life. lol

Nice tip... I've been working on tick tocks and rainbows for better collective management. for my rainbows, I'm working on linear, faster ones and slow, arching ones. It's helping me with negative collective. Negative seems to be my downfall! But it's getting there. My, eh hem, piroflips are getting better but I need lots of work. I'll start incorporating continuous flips/rolls in all directions as well.

[Angelo A]

Originally Posted by kc8qpu

If you do it right you won't use any collective to do the flip at all. Collective should be used just to control direction and altitude. But only while upright or inverted.

I have read and been told this but I am needing a lot more collective it seems while practicing the slow half piros. When I try to go faster and spin the tail faster, I see where the minimal collective comes into play. But for the slow half piroflips, I feel I am still needing to add a decent amount of collective to get the heli flipped back over from inverted specifically. Otherwise, she just drops!

[kc8qpu]

Another thing to work on is just keeping the heli flat while piroing. Both upright and of course the hardest is while inverted. I spent one whole winter just working on controlling the heli while continuously piroing. This was another thing that really helped me out.

[Angelo A]

Pretty pumped... I got the full piro flip while piro'ing upright to a flat piro inverted! I can get that pretty consistently! Just working on getting the second half, inverted piro, full piro flip to upright piro. Huge smile across my face when the full flip clicked. Was wondering how to go from half piro to full! and it finally clicked! So grateful for this site and all the helpful input from you HFers!

Now hurry up and warm up out there so I can go try it IRL!!

[ryguy76]

Originally Posted by Angelo A

Pretty pumped... I got the full piro flip while piro'ing upright to a flat piro inverted! I can get that pretty consistently! Just working on getting the second half, inverted piro, full piro flip to upright piro. Huge smile across my face when the full flip clicked. Was wondering how to go from half piro to full! and it finally clicked! So grateful for this site and all the helpful input from you HFers!

Now hurry up and warm up out there so I can go try it IRL!!

So you're doing a full tail rotation and ending up nose-in inverted? If so, do tell your secrets? I've been trying to move into that, and haven't cracked the code yet.

[Russell Harding]

I'd suggest super-slow on the sim. 30% or as low as it goes.

[Angelo A]

Ryguy76,

First read this thread, about 5th post down. Code3Medic has an awesome explanation & even better video breakdown in slow motion:

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=586238

Second, do as the man says and slow down the sim. Look for your tail to be in the positions described at each interval and per the video. This is what cracked the code for me. Watch & rewatch. Then watch again and try about 1,000,000,000 times on the sim till that awesome rush of accomplishment sweeps over you and your wife looks at you like you're nuts as you let out a scream and high five yourself!

[LN400]

Try breaking it down into manageable steps.

One possible way of breaking it down is this checklist:

Start Tail in, flip nose first to inverted (outwards), catch and hover inverted nose in. Altitude is not important as long as the heli stays above terra firma. More crucial is to avoid shooting across the sky.

From nose in inverted, flip nose first to tail in upright. Hold the hover. Same as above.

From left side in upright hover. Right roll (outwards) to right side in inverted (yep that is the HELI's right side you're looking at now),. Hold the hover. Same as above.

Fromright side in inverted, right roll (inwards ) to upright. Hold the hover. Same as above.

From upright nose in hover, back flip (outwards) to tail in inverted, hold the hover. Same as above.

From tail in inverted, back flip (inwards) to nose in upright, Hold the hover. Same as above.

From right side in upright, left roll (outwards) to inverted left side (yep, that's the HELI's left side in now). Hold the hover. Same as above.

From left side in inverted, left roll to right side in upright, Hold the hover.

Repeat till you can do all steps in one fluid go, one step after the other with no hesitating..

When all those are solid:

Repeat from start only THIS time, PAUSE at knife edge EXACTLY, Just briefly, less than a second, but make it pronounced and on KE exactly.

Repeat till you can do all steps in one fluid go, one step after the other with no hesitating..

Now we should be getting close.

Now repeat the above steps with the pauses at KE only THIS time:

Yaw the heli 180* at EVERY hover point and EVERY knife edge. Make that 180* exactly. Do play around with missing the 180 mark and pay attention to how that affects the rolls and flips, especially the flip/roll path.

Repeat and repeat again until you hate me. Then repeat some more.

Work on these steps until you can do all hover points and all KE's with 180* piros in one fluid go.

Now:

Work on doing those 180* piros AS YOU GO from one of the 4 cue points to the next, that is from hover to KE, from KE to hover, etc etc.

Keep at it till your heli piros continuously throughout the flip/roll.

Repeat only now, you will work the collective to maintain altitude. Remember: At KE you can not correct altitude. You will have to make corrections for altitude drops at every hover point, upright and inverted. Off the hover point and it's too late until you reach the next hover point.

Over and over.
(Jjust one way to go about it)