Question on Anderson Powerpoles vs EC5

[Scottyb410]

Originally Posted by gregor

But it also shows that it can handle 60 amps for 4 seconds with 10 gauge wire. I guess this begs the 1000 dollar question. What kind of amps are you drawing with that setup? My 8s 600 had peaks of just over 70 amps but those would last about 1 second. 10s or 12s would be lower for same wattage. A pilot that puts alot of hurt on the packs might be able heat them more than I do.

This is exactly why we tested the PP's in the lab. The Insulation on the battery wire will fail before the PP shells melt away.

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by Scottyb410

This is exactly why we tested the PP's in the lab. The Insulation on the battery wire will fail before the PP shells melt away.

Was there any vibration involved similar to what could be reasonably expected on a heli during the test? Would that matter? Would melting be the the failure condition we are looking for or contacts opening under load?

On my Logo, I have a Scorpion HK-4035-560 Brushless Motor. Here are the specs. Looks like 100 Amp continuous is possible. Not sure what the max would be and I'm not sure if this is realistic. I am running it on 2 5S packs in series (18.5 V x 2 = 37V).

If basic I = P/V applies, 4200W/37V = 113.5 Amps


Specifications

No. of Stator Arms ................................................ 12
No. of Magnet Poles ................................................ 8
Motor Wind ............................................ 8 Turn Delta
Motor Wire ..................... 26-Strand 0.29mm (28 AWG)
Motor Kv ............................................. 560 RPM / Volt
No-Load Current (Io) ................. 1.74 Amps @ 8.4 volts
Motor Resistance (Rm) ............................. 0.012 Ohms
Max Continuous Current .............................. 100 Amps
Max Continuous Power .............................. 4200 Watts


Rick

[flerpie]

Originally Posted by bmclaurin

Is it possible to crimp both the ESC and BEC wires together in one 45 amp PP connector? IIRC, my CC100 uses 10awg wire, so it would be quite tight in there. do you have to resort to soldering to run an ext BEC?

Another option for external BEC hookup might be to get the juice
from the balance tap. Does anyone advise against this?
After all, the balance tap wiring can certainly handle enuff
current to supply a BEC I would think.

[Scottyb410]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

Was there any vibration involved similar to what could be reasonably expected on a heli during the test? Would that matter? Would melting be the the failure condition we are looking for or contacts opening under load?

No, all of our testing was performed statically. We simply wanted to measure the current we could pass through connector. In addition, we used solid core 10AWG wire as the conductors. Our test bench could only supply 200 amps so that's where we stopped. It did get damn hot though.

You have to remember there is an enormous melting point differential between plastics and metals. Copper for example will melt at temperatures around 1980 F. This is why we can still examine electrical wiring systems in a house after a house fire. The flame temperature is usually not hot enough to melt the copper.

Plastics on the other hand, will melt, pyrolyze and ignite at a much lower temperature. Most house wire such as Romex 14/2 is sheathed in 90 degrees Celsius rated insulation. Now mind you, 90C gives it a lot head room before it melts.

As for the 100 amp continuous rating, I have personally never witnessed anything of that magnitude. Perhaps some momentary spikes. My 600esp is running 12s so the current draw is relatively low. My 500 won't generate that draw. I am sure however, some of the 3D guys develop some fairly lofty current demands.

I guess the moral of my story is, in my humble opinion, you will lose the insulation on the battery wiring before the electrical connection fails. Now, on the plus side for the EC5, should the connector melt away while in flight, the plug style connector will stay intact whereas the PP will disconnect. However, if you actually generate enough heat to melt away either of those connector shells in flight, you have much bigger problems to worry about.

Scotty

[Gregor99]

Originally Posted by Scottyb410

As for the 100 amp continuous rating, I have personally never witnessed anything of that magnitude. Perhaps some momentary spikes. My 600esp is running 12s so the current draw is relatively low. My 500 won't generate that draw. I am sure however, some of the 3D guys develop some fairly lofty current demands.

Agreed. Like I said, on my 600 electric on 8s was not close to 100 amps continuous. I just installed the 4035-500, on 12s and I expect the current levels to be lower.

[rdlohr]

Good points. I'm guessing I will not see 100 Amp continuous as well, but I'm expecting well over 45 Amps. I guess I'm safer with EC5s, but I can see a LOT of benefit with the crimp on approach. I'm pretty skilled with a soldering iron and like I said, I'm not completely happy with the job I did. I wish I would have practiced with 10 gauge wire. I I I got in trouble due to the heavier gauge wire combined with the fact that the wire already on the ESC made it harder to manipulate. I would do better next time.

Rick

[rdlohr]

Here is an awesome example of how many amps are pulled during a typical flight by an accomplished pilot, Kyle Stacy. With my comparably lousy collective management skills, I'm sure I will pull more.

http://www.crazyheli.net/tiki-read_a...p?articleId=30

Rick

[Gregor99]

The real time data in that video was pretty cool. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what connectors he is running. I'm guessing not the APP45s.

[rdlohr]

I talk to Ray periodically. If I think of it I'll ask him.
Rick

[Smacka]

Thank you for a most informative thread. I am going with either 5.5mm bullets for my 12s 5100 application OR EC5 (have both). I use APP for my charging needs.

I cannot imagine that anyone would ever have issues with 5.5mm Castle bullets, EC5 or APP connectors.

Just finished integrating a CC BEC with a CC 120 HV ESC...what a total pain in the arse with EC5 connectors. As previously stated, having enough room for the integration is difficult. I am well versed in solder (not that others here are not) and was able to get it done without unnecessary brittling of the wires BUT it was not fun...

Thanks again!
Smacka

[rstacy]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

I talk to Ray periodically. If I think of it I'll ask him.
Rick

We are using the deans connectors but I don't like it. We have had them unplug a couple of times. (first flight of a new Logo 600) In defense of the deans plugs, I think it was the generic plugs that unplugged.

The bullets are nice but get loose after about 20 uses. The good news is an awl can quickly restore the bullet.

Ray

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by rstacy

We are using the deans connectors but I don't like it. We have had them unplug a couple of times. (first flight of a new Logo 600) In defense of the deans plugs, I think it was the generic plugs that unplugged.

The bullets are nice but get loose after about 20 uses. The good news is an awl can quickly restore the bullet.

Ray

Thanks Ray. Do you have any words of wisdom on the EC5s and/or the Anderson Power Poles?

Rick

[SNAFU]

Originally Posted by flerpie

I'm looking at APP for making a 3S series adapter. A little solid block
that you plug in 2 lipos....the other side goes to the ESC. I dislike 3S
series adapters with long wires on them.

I'm not sure I'm following you completely, but when I need to run 2 packs in series I simply Connect the positive of one pack to the negative of the other using no adapters. that's the beauty of powerpoles. the remaining positive and negative lead from each battery goes to my esc, and bec. Not sure if that's what your talking about or not.

Bill

[rstacy]

Originally Posted by rdlohr

Thanks Ray. Do you have any words of wisdom on the EC5s and/or the Anderson Power Poles?

Rick

I used Anderson Power Poles years ago. I thought they were great.

[rdlohr]

Originally Posted by rstacy

I used Anderson Power Poles years ago. I thought they were great.

Thanks Ray. Were they on high current machines?
Rick

[flerpie]

It's nice to know that Powerwerx explicity reserves the right to upgrade
or replace my crimper at any time. I have no say in the matter

[flerpie]

Originally Posted by SNAFU

I'm not sure I'm following you completely, but when I need to run 2 packs in series I simply Connect the positive of one pack to the negative of the other using no adapters. that's the beauty of powerpoles. the remaining positive and negative lead from each battery goes to my esc, and bec. Not sure if that's what your talking about or not.

Bill

Thx...yep I understand the configuration of the wiring.
Looks like I'll have 2ea. XT-60 connectors epoxied together.
A +/- jumper diagonally across the correct pins.
2 wires from the other 2 pins back to the ESC.
A "powercube"...so to speak. No 6 inches of floppy
noodlicity getting in my way.

But....wow...you bring a good point Bill.
I'll look hard at the way you're doing it.

[MpVpRb]

Originally Posted by seanmil666

What is the maximum amp a 10 gauge wire can take.

It's all about the cooling.

Wires have resistance. When a current flows through a resistance, heat is produced.

If the heat is removed, or the duration is short, a 10 ga wire can carry a tremendous amount of current.

I remember when my home electric was hooked up. I installed a 200A service, and the code called for a wire almost a half inch in diameter. When the city guys showed up, they used a very small wire, about a quarter inch in diameter, to go from the pole to my connection.

I asked, "why the difference?"

They said, the wire from the pole is in free air, my wire is in a conduit...big difference.

So..a 10ga wire in a conduit is rated to carry 30A continuously. But, well cooled, can probably carry 200A for a short time.

In liquid nitrogen...it can probably carry 1000A for a short time...

Of course, defining "short" can be tricky..

[questech]

Hello

I have to chime in here because of my experiences with a large prototype octocopter.

My testing has revealed some information that may be interesting to you and it raised some questions for me.

My octo can consume a max of 480 amps at full throttle not including any other overhead than the motors. It has a total lifting capacity of 96lbs and weighs about 30lbs without a payload.

This rig is meant for slow, steady flying so it hovers at around 35% throttle and would rarely get over 60%. With that said you have to take emergency scenarios into account, which could call for much more power.

During a test flight with an 11.5lb payload I had a catastrophic failure. I was prepared for such an event and all ended well with no disasters.

Interesting though was what I learned from the event.

What happened is that I was in a very confined area hovering about 3.5' off the ground battling some major vortexes, which put a strain on the system (by design). All of a sudden all 8 of the motors stopped instantly and the octo fell straight down to the ground!

My first observation is that you can't say enough about a well balanced machine. If it were out of balance I would have sustained quite a bit of damage. I was very impressed with its structural integrety as it came down from 3.5' at a weight of at least 42lbs and there was no damage whatsoever.

After an initial inspection I looked for the problem and I soon located the culprit.

I was using an EC5 connector pair as a kill switch on the positive main bus and what happened is that with all of the power going through that one point, it overheated and failed. I have since replaced that with a 400 amp power switch.

What amazed me though is that the EC5 connector itself didn't fail! I was pushing between 250 amps and 325 amps through that one choke point and through that little EC5 but there was no sign of physical damage to the connector. What happened is the solder melted and the wires came out of the connector solder cup.

I think that the design of the EC5 could use some improvement in that the solder cup could be a lot deeper allowing more contact area and more solder.

So that proves that the connector can take some amperage, but raises a point; if the connector itself can take the temp, how do you keep the wires connected?

I check temps after every flight and in the previous flight I noticed that connector getting a little hot, but not to the point where I grounded the octo. I did know that I had to find an alternative, but didn't expect it to have a melt down, after all this was the 12th test flight without incident.

With every flight, including the one with the melt down, all of the motors, ESCs, lipos, and wiring located in the undercarriage was only slightly warm to the touch. I can only assume that there was an undue amount of resistance in that connector for some reason that fateful flight.

I will resume testing sometime next week using 36000mAh of power and I will be careful to check for hot spots, but with this much power, it's hard to find equipment to handle it and be relatively compact to fit the purpose that multirotors require. I've had to make a lot of equipment for this rig as it is. Replacing the EC5 with the power switch will certainly illiminate that problem from happening again, but will there be another hot spot that could cause a problem?

Your feedback is most welcome, thanks all for reading!

Anthony

Originally Posted by Gregor99

The EC5s are rated for 120 amps continuous. That is substantially more than 45 amps. But the real question is, do your really need that capability in your connector? Some will choose the EC5s because of the overhead, which is fine. But for many, the APPs with the modest current rating, will be suitable. Personally, I think if your heli is pulling 120 amps continous, its time to increase the voltage in your power system, not change your connector.

[Gladius]

Have you checked all your other connections, to ensure they can handle 480A of current? Most high current connections use contacts that are bolted together, like you can find at any auto parts store. You would have to add switches, of course.

You might also get more help by posting in the multi-rotors section, since what you are building is definitely NOT a 500 size heli. Good luck!