Kontronik Pyro 650

[_Dekker]

Originally Posted by _Dekker

To be continued..

Well it took me some time to evaluate the motor:
The Pyro 650 1.18mm 18turns 19.68mm^2 version that is.
I measured 540kv with slightly lower than YGE 18 timing.

I thought: "hey with the nice new Jive Pro 120HV why not make the E700 even lighter" so I got myself one and sold my Kosmik 160HV. Bad mistake.
First 2 flights with the P650 went fine and I was happy with the performance, it pulled really nice in my opinion.
However around the 3rd flight into a big powerloop "oh oh hard shutdown" and landed with a burn mark in the side of the esc.
Long story short: Kontronik tested my P650 which was 100% fine, and I got myself a Kosmik 160HV again.
Did about 20 flights on it and the power is simply amazing for the size of the motor. Also the Kosmik really does perform better, the Jive Pro simply did not feel that good with this motor.
I am so happy with this 650 that I sold my tuned 4235 ''NickMaxDekker' and also a tuned P700 that I had planned for this heli.
Oh and the motor runs really really cool

[HeliFX]

not surprised by your findings Dekker.
check out Nico Niewind using a Pyro 650 with Banshee 700
and yes he too is using Kosmik 200

I posted this vid sometime ago

not sure if its stock motor I doubt it

Nico Niewind - Banshee 700 + Pyro 650 (4 min 36 sec)

[HeliFX]

Oh Dekker here you can check out the log files from his P650 motor banshee flight

https://niconiewind.wordpress.com/

[prototype3a]

I need to get off my butt and rewind my scorpion 4025 mikado edition for ~500kv to try in my Logo600 and my e700.

[_Dekker]

Finally I was able to film one of the flights with my Pyro 650 setup:

Raptor E700 Pyro 650 PowerDekker (6 min 1 sec)

[omerco]

6 min wow - long time no see that
Looking nice. how powerfull is the setup compared to the previous one you had?

[_Dekker]

Originally Posted by omerco

6 min wow - long time no see that
Looking nice. how powerfull is the setup compared to the previous one you had?

I love it. I feel no difference in power compared to a tuned P700.
The tuned 4235 perhaps had a bit more oomph under 1800rpm but with the P650 the E700 feels more alive and responsive.

[HeliFX]

Hey Dekker,

this is awesome. Had my mind on this for while now.
so what is the overall weight of that machine ?
Did you have to mess with gearing a lot ?

guessing esc in use is the new Jive pro 120 ?

Log file Log file ?

Originally Posted by _Dekker

I love it. I feel no difference in power compared to a tuned P700.
The tuned 4235 perhaps had a bit more oomph under 1800rpm but with the P650 the E700 feels more alive and responsive.

[prototype3a]

Along the same lines, I flew my Logo600 on 6s5000 with a KDE 500xf-925 and a HK3/4020-1100 this week. At the moment, I'm VERY tempted to rewind the KDE for a slightly higher kv and leave it in the 600 for the rest of the season. At 1600rpm, the scorpion didn't really feel all that different from my old 12s setup but I was getting 9min flights. At just 1300rpm, the KDE was pretty docile but still very flyable.

[_Dekker]

Originally Posted by HeliFX

Hey Dekker,

this is awesome. Had my mind on this for while now. [emoji14]eace
so what is the overall weight of that machine ?
Did you have to mess with gearing a lot ?

guessing esc in use is the new Jive pro 120 ?

Log file Log file ?

It weighs about 4.8kg.
As you can read in one of my earlier posts I had bad luck with the Jive Pro and went back to the Kosmik. The Kosmik also does a better job governing the motor.
Pinion: I simply took the smallest available for this heli (12t) and matched the Kv I need accordingly.
I have no SD card in the ESC at the moment but I do plan to do some logs in the future. At least my DS-16 tells me the pwm range I'm in is fine but the resolution is too low to say something useful about current spikes.

[HeliFX]

Ok just saw older post dekker so Jive 120 was a no go and
your using kosmik 160.

[Icanfly]

um, I may be relatively new around this forum but I have a lot of experience in things of the nature which is in the interest of the forum. Now, let's talk bearings for a moment. Upon reading much info in the last 6 topics 2 and 2 together make this more sensible,

hybrid / ceramic ball bearings are much more expensive and never lasted long into brushless outrunners into our tests.
why? I don't know.

Everyone knows the price for perfection is high dollars, and because some of the forum members don't want to divulge more info thereby giving away the edge they believe they have in competition, understandable, it isn't impossible to go out and do one's own testing and that would cost time and money, something some guys want other dudes to lay out so they may save from awful mistakes. Ceramic bearings are pricey, where they can be applied is still not 100% definite.

Let's take the motor use example. By mistake I bought hybrids for my little no name 6s 2200kv wind, I'm happy but made a mistake in installing one of them with a little shock force, I hope it isn't broken.

Bearings, no matter what they are made of need for the pair to be perfectly aligned so that there's no radial pressure against any portion of a bearing race in one or more regions of the radius, otherwise wear and failure. Because manufacturers are not worried about a few thou tolerance the stator bearing seats would have to be cnc'd to be perfect to 100.000 thou of an inch, maybe they are maybe not, you still have vibes.

Ceramics' do need a little lube of some kind as well.

In my rewind I spooled the motor up and felt vibration at certain rpm and less with higher rpm. I think due to vibes, heat, imbalances with the magnet can, torque forces on the bearings through the pinion, and maybe a few other details, ceramics in the present configuration of bearings in a motor they will fail in short order.

Not only do I fly but I design things and believe I have an answer to the problem, no, I KNOW I have the solution in my designs. Will I tell you? not right now but when I do you will know it, got $500 for a heli motor, (probably not and that could be a problem).

Any way, this is an interesting forum, not a soap opera stage, any misunderstandings should not derail the op's original intent,

keep cool.

[omerco]

Very interesting topic - but wrong thread.
Would you open a new one about that?

[Icanfly]

Would you open a new one about that?

sure I might,

getting to the motor flight btw,, dekker flying the TT e700 that well was great.

In my own little lipo/blade/heli switch up it was fascinating to end up with no loss of flight time when the motor was kept to it's highest level of efficiency. I can only dream of the day when there's enough experience to fly as well as dekker did regardless, keep the motor experiments coming.

Hmm, what to do about the bearings?

[_Dekker]

Pyro 650 1.12mm 18turns YY 17.73mm^2

This is the same wind as the extreme version in one of my earlier posts, but now it is one wire thickness smaller and this I can fit on a stock black coated stator.
The fill still surpasses the Competition version by 5-25% depending on the kv value of the Comp.

The wind from the front:


Back side:


This one weighs 317gr.
Internal resistance measured: 19.5mOhm.
It measures 549kv in my bench test and ~530kv on a Kontronik esc.

[powercroco]

neat work, well done.

[HeliFX]

Dekker,

nice job

is this motor still being used in your E700 ?

is it still working out as expected ?

Originally Posted by _Dekker

Pyro 650 1.12mm 18turns YY 17.73mm^2

This is the same wind as the extreme version in one of my earlier posts, but now it is one wire thickness smaller and this I can fit on a stock black coated stator.
The fill still surpasses the Competition version by 5-25% depending on the kv value of the Comp.

The wind from the front:


Back side:


This one weighs 317gr.
Internal resistance measured: 19.5mOhm.
It measures 549kv in my bench test and ~530kv on a Kontronik esc.

[_Dekker]

Originally Posted by HeliFX

Dekker,

nice job

is this motor still being used in your E700 ?

is it still working out as expected ?

Thanks,
Yes I'm still using the 1.18mm version form post #4.
I logged about 400 flights total on it now, all of them in the E700. At first I ran it with the 4.4 firmware of the Kosmik and autotiming. This gave a lot of power but I had an unexpected hard shutdown every 30 flights or so. Try doing an unexpected auto while piroflipping 3m high and shutdown happens when inverted
Then I locked the timing at 20deg which solved the shutdowns but also gave a bit of power loss.
Then Kontronik tipped me to go for the 4.6 firmware and I also went back to autotiming again. I have been using this for about 100 flights now without any issues. The power is back again and it runs very reliable and cool.
I do not have the need for anything else, for me this combo is perfect.
Btw it actually is 527kv on the Kosmik.

[HeliFX]

Dekker,

With those findings do u still feel that a Kosmik is need with the P650 ?

Curious too know if HeliJive would have any trouble or suffer shutdowns.
If its firmware or mostly esc settings cause these issue's

I wonder if YGE 160 HV would work which I currently have

Originally Posted by _Dekker

Thanks,
Yes I'm still using the 1.18mm version form post #4.
I logged about 400 flights total on it now, all of them in the E700. At first I ran it with the 4.4 firmware of the Kosmik and autotiming. This gave a lot of power but I had an unexpected hard shutdown every 30 flights or so. Try doing an unexpected auto while piroflipping 3m high and shutdown happens when inverted
Then I locked the timing at 20deg which solved the shutdowns but also gave a bit of power loss.
Then Kontronik tipped me to go for the 4.6 firmware and I also went back to autotiming again. I have been using this for about 100 flights now without any issues. The power is back again and it runs very reliable and cool.
I do not have the need for anything else, for me this combo is perfect.
Btw it actually is 527kv on the Kosmik.

[prototype3a]

I was flying my e700 today (xera 4030-3y) and I was thinking I could probably get away with a smaller motor. I had peaks of about 88A but the average current was very low.