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Align 3G FBL System Align 3G FBL Flybarless System Software and Hardware Support |
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06-14-2010, 06:39 AM | #41 (permalink) |
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Rbeal, Could (should) Align be renormalizing the Bell / Hiller so the two always add up to 100%.
IE (Hiller*y) + (Bell*y) = 100% Where Y = 1/(Hiller + Bell) If Hiller = 50% and Bell = 50% then Y=1 If Hiller = 50% and Bell = 70% then Y = 0.833
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06-14-2010, 10:40 AM | #42 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Yeah that would be another way to do it. Would seem to be less obvious to tune beings there is another layer of "modifying" the numbers that the user can't actually see. But yeah that would be the way to do it if you wanted to have two numbers like they do. I don't know why they didn't just use one ratio. That is exactly how it is desined in the physical head (not that this software layout actually resembles anything physical in a hiller/bell setup). The hiller comes from one side of the lever and the bell comes from the other. Where you physically place the pivot point is what sets the mechanical Bell/Hiller ratio. The total length of the arm stays fixed and you as the user can move the pivot piont. Well if you do it the way they are doing it you are chaning the lengths of the arms on both ends and the pivot point kinda gets figured out in the wash. I like your method though, the math makes sense to renormalize. That would keep the rest of the software relative which I like. My guess is they don't normalize or use my ratio method specially beings they have that hard coded stipulation that says 100 < bell+hiller <150. If you normalized you really would'nt care where those numbers fell.
I finally got all of my gear in so maybe this weekend I will have some actual time on the unit to sort a few more details out. I'll write up a "how to guide" as soon as I get some time. I'm real swamped with work. It sucks just having my new heli just sit on the bench half built!! -Beall |
06-16-2010, 08:33 AM | #43 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Question
OK been reading thread and excellent info. I may have missed it but where are your gain pot settings during your fine tuning? Are they at original settings or do you set them to a default one to use the software to program? Thanks
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06-16-2010, 03:44 PM | #44 (permalink) |
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The way to go seems leave it at default and start with total gains in the software.
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Align T-Rex 500 3G FBL || Spektrum DX7 || View my current 3G settings here:http://3g.doelauw.nl/?s=1277838222 |
06-16-2010, 03:58 PM | #45 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Bell and Hiller really isn't that magical of a setting it is simply the ratio of how much of you want coming from the controller versus how much you want coming directly from the Rx
Bell = 30% = 30% of servo control comes directly from rx Hiller = 70% = 70% comes from the gyro feedback control loop Bell/Hiller ratio is less critical but you are right getting the PID gains or the Total/Lock/Stop gains to your likeing is more important. Ironically if you have a Low Hiller and High Bell you won't really be able to tell if your T/L/S gains are correct because most of the servo movement is coming straight from the rx at that point. It makes sense to me to set Hiller high and tune the T/L/S gains to get them in parameters and then back Hiller back down while increaseing Bell. If Hiller is at 70% you can only really hope that your T/L/S gains are +- 30 correct because Bell is fighting it. Its kind of a chicken or the egg isolation problem. But if you set it high, start with low T/L/S gains and then increase until the point just before oscilation, then back Hiller back down to stock or below stock you will be very pleased. -Beall |
06-16-2010, 04:21 PM | #46 (permalink) | |
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Quote:
My 500 doesn't fly well at 12:00,,,too wobbly,,,it likes about a 10:30 setting and I don't know enough about the programming to compensate for a 12:00 setting,,,or even know if thats what is intended. Help? |
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06-16-2010, 06:02 PM | #47 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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I'll take a gander tonight if I can get it all hooked up. Still waiting on half of my electronics to get here to finish off the heli. I have a feeling they either disable the trim pots or let them have some adjustment +-around what ever Total gain you set for the appropriate axis. I'll be able to tell pretty easily with it all running, just got to get a crack bit more time. Work is swamping me.
I do know that the trim pots are adjusting the Total gain. So lower that first if things are oscilating -Beall |
06-19-2010, 10:05 PM | #48 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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Beall,
Have you found anything else new? |
06-20-2010, 02:03 PM | #49 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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I am still waiting on my ESC/BEC to come in. All I have done so far is glance at the hardware underneath and update the units to 2.1. As soon as GrandRC ships me my stuff back I should be ready to go.
On another note, I have been running through my head the best way to wire up the power busses. I have been reading through the bus problem and I think most people have the wrong conception of what is wrong. I'm leaing towards running the 3G off of the CC10 amp BEC and then run the servos/rx off of the ICE75lite BEC. Spread the power out a little bit. |
08-04-2010, 10:46 PM | #50 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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I run the power and ground from the servo wire to the receiver instead of the 3G controller. All you have to do is move pins between connectors, no soldering required. Since the 3G gets its power from AIL I believe, I used a spare connector housing for that servo and plugged it into a spare port on the receiver. Takes a few minutes and it works great. No reason to run two power sources, just adds another point of failure.
Great information in the thread. Thanks!
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700N LE - 3G, 91HZ-R, SB-20FH-2, AR7100R, Edge 693FBL 600NSP - 3G, 55HZ, B320, 8717, 8900G, AR7100, Edge 603FBL 450 Pro & 450 SEv2 Stock Setups 450 SEv2 - SK360, MiniG, HKII-2221-6, CC 60, Edge 325FBL 250 SE - GY520, 290G & 250 Orig Stock Setup ---- JR 12x/Spek DX7se |
10-06-2010, 12:10 PM | #52 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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great thread really
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06-28-2011, 07:53 PM | #53 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Beall. I'm guessing by now you have more to add to this! Just wondering if u had anything to add now that u have some flight time on ur 3G ? Great read thanks!
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06-28-2011, 10:54 PM | #54 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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He's actually working on another project. He's created his own system with the help of someone else. Being able to write the code gives you an idea his level of understanding PID / PI controllers. This is only a hobby for him, the last I heard he's not going to market it.
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06-29-2011, 05:30 PM | #55 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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This should be a sticky, it's excellent!
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"Sort your head out and fly with your heart" Trex 450 SE V2: 9257 tail, Spartan Quark, HS65mg cyclic, DX7-AR7000, NEU 1107h/2y, Jazz Esc, Trex 550 FBL: Jive 100+LV, KDE/NEU 1907H/1/N42, Vbar 5.3, Futaba BLS 251 |
06-30-2011, 06:03 AM | #56 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Good reading, I ended up lowering the Hiller and cyclic pitch motion delay to 40.
Being used to flybarred units my first experiance with FBL was on a 500 and had a immediate " wow this thing feels docile and slow ro respond" Upped the collective once and the cyclic twice, still felt like the snap still wasn't there. Being new to the 3G I started to dig threw the GUI reading the descriptions poping up at the bottom of the screen and got to the hiller and it stated lower gave more direct control with faster resonce so I lower it and the cyclic pitch motion delay higher softened responce so I lower it and that was the ticket, quick to respond and getting the gain just right , windy conditions have very little affect during flight. Naturally lowering lock gains came later. |
07-01-2011, 11:29 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
P = proportional gain = total gain? Or the sun of ALL THREE: P = proportional gain = total gain + I = integral = lock gain + D= derivative = stop gain? I am guessing you (and ALIGN) mean the first one. |
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07-03-2011, 08:38 AM | #58 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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He's referring to the gain pots on the controller. Going lower also lowers 3G correction and going to low can cause instabulity in windy conditions and drift.
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07-04-2011, 01:52 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
My question is WHICH CONTROL ALGORITHM does the gain pots adjust. is it the proportional gain only or is it the total sum of ALL THREE PID (Total/Lock/Stop) gains? (he said total so does total mean all three or just the total as in proportional ?) Thanks again. |
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07-04-2011, 11:03 AM | #60 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Total gain compensation lowers the gain sensitivity of the pots for elev and aile, nothing else. |
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