Need Videos: Transition to Full Piro-Flips from Half-Piro-Flips

[Caveman5150]

I watched the ones here, in this Forum. It got me to 1/2 Piro\ flips.
Anyone have a good step-by-step video for doing FULL piroflips after learning 1/2's as recommended?
If its the identical stick movement as halves, my timing is way off... Im not seeing it.

[audacity]

Your not the only one!!! I know many good 3d pilots that can't so them. The sim shows ya how to do them and I still can't get it. A few have told me to watch the nose to get it. They look so easy and I'm so far away from pulling one.
Please do post anything ya use to figure em out.
Cheers


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[blade450]

Well, the way I see it, if you are going to do an extra piro, that means you will have to do your normal piroflip, but end up vertical.
Then you do another piroflip like that, from vertical to horizontal.
To archieve this, you'll need to reduce the amount of aileron and elevator to about a half of what you used to fully flip the helicopter.
I am not at the point I am going to practice this, but when I am, this is the way I will practice this.
I hope it is somewhat useful.

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[360Wings]

You just string the together without pausing... As you complete the first 1/2 piro flip you transition from positive collective to negative. This is done whilst you are still stirring the stick I.e flipping... You will find that you will be all over the sky initially as you learn but as you get used to the piro flip you will naturally learn to make the corrections to hold your position. The timing of when and how much collective plays a huge part in how steady you piro flips will be as adding it too early before the disc is flat will cause the heli to drift in the direct the disc is tilting as you change the collective. At the same time you need to maintain consistent tail speed and stirring synchronisation or you will start to move too.

You will likely discover that the "double stir" piro flips are actually easier that the single stir as the extra stir give you an opportunity to add extra corrections. It actually take more skill to add in the corrections doing the single stir method which is what we all start on.

Once you start doing piro flips it you will realise its all about timing/rhythm. To do good piro flips you need to have gone past the stage of having to worry about orientations and purposely thinking about each element..




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[Otto Rotation]

Slow the piro rates in the sim down a bit.

Slow sim physics down to 25%.

Just practice hitting the entry point of the flip over and over - right as the tail is coming around when upright and right as the nose is coming around when inverted.

Keep practicing it until you can do them continuously at 25%. Then increase to 50%. Then 75%. Then 100%.

It's taken me ~100 hours to learn this in the sim and I'm only just now getting up the guts to try one for real. I can do half piros in the real world all day long, but full ones are a big hill to climb.

Practice piro hover and travel, too. You need to be able to adjust while inverted without having to think about your orientation.

Also, record your sessions and watch them. Make sure the transmitter view is included because you want to check your stick movements. I've noticed at 100% physics I get rushed with my stir and it ends up sort of oval shaped rather than circular, which throws everything off. I also don't give enough negative pitch when flipping from inverted back to upright, as someone else pointed out to me. At lower physics speeds I don't do this. It's just a matter of more practice.

[360Wings]

You will find as you get better that to make corrections you will actually cut the stir short and at times with become oval shape...

If you obsess over looking at the stick movements to get a perfect circle/stir everytime you will never progress as the adjustment/corrections to keep the piro flip aligned and ruffly in the one stop will come in the form of decrease into (i.e. oval shape) or even truncting the stir to a half stir (typically to resync with the tail)...

My advice and the way i learnt was never to look at the stick control (turn it off)... You need to train your brain to make the necessary movements on what is seeing.. Not trying to just complete a pre - planned set of stick movements as it doesnt work with complex moves like a piro flip where you are managing 4 inputs at the same time.

It does take a heap of practice, coordination and sense of timing.. And its a fact of life that there will be some pilots that try as they might just wont be able to program their brains to complete piro flips or similar moves...

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by 360Wings

....
My advice and the way i learnt was never to look at the stick control (turn it off)... You need to train your brain to make the necessary movements on what is seeing.. Not trying to just complete a pre - planned set of stick movements as it doesnt work with complex moves like a piro flip where you are managing 4 inputs at the same time.

It does take a heap of practice, coordination and sense of timing.. And its a fact of life that there will be some pilots that try as they might just wont be able to program their brains to complete piro flips or similar moves...

+1.

You fly the move, not just "stir" it. If you are thinking individual stick movements, you are probably not yet are the right part of the learning curve to really master this move.

I'm still learning and I really don't care what the sticks are doing. I'm concentrating on what the heli is doing and flying it through the moves I need. Very slow at first, then SLOWLY increase speed as I "feel" the corrections.

[Otto Rotation]

I didn't say you stir for the sake of a stir. The biggest thing I took from Nick M's video is that it is about moving through four orientations and not timing. And when I miss orientations I can immediately see that reflected in disproportionate or reactive stick movements. And when I am in a groove I can also see that reflected in the sticks - smooth, proportional movement to each orientation.

I cannot agree with the notion of not analyzing your inputs and your form. This is a tool used in every type of sporting activity there is. From fly fishing to race car driving.

[Dylan Hudock]

I got them down in the sim to where I can do double piro flips almost constantly, and not moving very much. It really helped to start tail in, and do one full piro in a flip to inverted nose in. Even doing a half piro flip at first and then just finishing the other half piro really helped. I worked on these for about 2 weeks in the sim for about 45 minutes a day and they just clicked one day. But breaking it down to starting upright tail in and then a 1 piro flip to nose in inverted is what really helped. Sorry for the long post. Hope I helped!

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

....
I'm still learning and I really don't care what the sticks are doing. I'm concentrating on what the heli is doing and flying it through the moves I need. Very slow at first, then SLOWLY increase speed as I "feel" the corrections.

Originally Posted by Otto Rotation

....
I cannot agree with the notion of not analyzing your inputs and your form. This is a tool used in every type of sporting activity there is. From fly fishing to race car driving.

I didn't say I do not analyse inputs. To try analyse the difference in timing from the input to the heli (and the magnitude) comes in to "feel". The difference between input and response is too fast to work with analytically.

The "feel" is getting ahead of the heli so you anticipate where it will be and respond to things that are going to happen.

Eg. I was losing height in a piro-flip (360 per flip). The two things I realised by watching the heli was that: a) I was not properly levelling inverted b) I was not giving enough "catch" when becoming inverted. So I had to add more negative collective earlier and change the mid-flip corrections to ensure it landed flat. What the exact stick movement change to do this, I no longer know. But I know what the desired change to the output was and a few repetitions, the movements and timing required to achieve them came.

You concentrate on the desired result and the "unconscious competence" in the control mechanisms enable you to achieve that result. I find, I think what to do to fix, not the mechanics of how to do it. A subtle but important difference.

Correction is the normal training principle. Act, analyse, plan, repeat. (I just need to do more of it )

[4DPILOT]

I'll try explain how to get to it at the sim

first Thing you have to do is watch someone do them.

The Point in doing this is to recognise when the piroflip is done and when the next one starts. (if you just see the heli Spinning somehow without really knowing the exakt orientation your going to have a hard time)

When iyou see someone do a new maneuver at the beginning you cant really tell what the heli is doing. as soon as you can tell at every Point of the maneuver what it does when you watch it you're ready to go on.

Now you should know how its supposed to be flown. (used to how the maneuver Looks like) For a Standard piroflip the heli doing consistant piroettes and Flips in one direction.


Piroflips are all about Timing!!!

I recommend Setting the helicopter tail piroette rate to the Speed you want to piroflip.
This way at least the tail is going to be consistent if you put the stick to the side in mode 2.

Keep in mind it gets difficult with too low and too fast piroette rates.

I look at the Frames of the heli when doing a piroflip, but at any time i still see the skids and tail boom aswell as the rotordisk while looking at the Frames.

My Timing is based on when i notice the tailboom Points directly to me. (some might have it opposite with the nose)

try to piroflip the disk so the heli is inverted then do the next half piroflip.

it will be difficult and take some practise at the sim but once you get the hang of it it will get smoother and more precise.

up to the Point where you can move the heli around doing piroflips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLr_...Rs8bS&index=19

Hope this helps a Little

[RogerRabit]

I learned as follows

Backflips
Travelling backflips
Travelling backflip with 180 degree piro
Contnuous travelling backflips with 180 degree piro per 180 flip
frontflip
Travelling front........

Circles with ... Above
all with cw and ccw piros.

Loops with piros cw / ccw inside and outside.

Now your orientation while piruetting is fairly solid.

Now the transition is easy to accomplish

You fly the back (or front) travelling flip and instead of transitioning from forward to forward inverted you transition to inverted backwards.
that requires you to have the tail not 90 degree in the vertical but vertical UP in the first phase and when you mastered it vertical down in the second.

Doing it travelling helps you a lot in orientation and precision of the move.

the 1.5 piroflip travelling looks very good also, then you fly the the above but steer in tail a little more so you are flying from normal to inverted normal again but with a 270 til vertical.

Hope that helps you to bypass your brainlock.