$76 a gallon for 30% Heli Fuel?

[JJMAN]

The Sky Is Falling, The Sky Is Falling, Were Doomed We'll Never Make It!

[Laurens]

I just hope this isn't true. I just have 4 gallons left and I'm out of $$$ for a while now. The only shop that carries WC for a good price is out of stock too....

[Ed Zachary]

But is there really? Or is it political BS and infighting?

One word. Greed.

Like most other industries, they are following Oil's lead to see how much "the traffic will allow". They just want their piece of our a... er, the pie.

[Pinecone]

Originally Posted by skigolfmike

FWIW, Methanol and Nitromethane have a higher flash point than gasoline. There's a reason they don't run gasoline at Indy. Search on Eddie Sachs and 1963 or 1964.

No, the reason they run alcohol at INdy is to run the high boost pressures. Methanol has a very high natural anti knock index (AKI, it isn't truely octane above 100)

And the flash point isn't a big deal as Methanol is still only 11C. Flash point is the temp where a flammable level of vapor is given off by the liquid. Below the flash point, the liquid doesn't evaporate fast enough to give a flammable (ignitable) mixture.

For reference, gasoline flash point is around -40. And both are low enough to be Class 1A (highest risk class).

Nitromethane is 36C. But all are still classed as Flammable liquids. Above 37.8C flash point, they become combutible liquids.

[skigolfmike]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

No, the reason they run alcohol at Indy is to run the high boost pressures. Methanol has a very high natural anti knock index (AKI, it isn't truly octane above 100)

They switched to methanol in '65 after the crash and cut the fuel tank size to 40 gallons. McDonald started the race with 110 gal of gas. Part of the reason they changed to methanol was to reduce the explosive fire risk. Most of the field was running methanol anyway. McDonald was trying to run the race without pitstops.

Originally Posted by Pinecone

And the flash point isn't a big deal as Methanol is still only 11C. Flash point is the temp where a flammable level of vapor is given off by the liquid. Below the flash point, the liquid doesn't evaporate fast enough to give a flammable (ignitable) mixture.

Gas and methanol are both scary fuels. You can't see a methanol fire in daylight. Ask Rick Mears.

Originally Posted by Pinecone

For reference, gasoline flash point is around -40. And both are low enough to be Class 1A (highest risk class).

Nitromethane is 36C. But all are still classed as Flammable liquids. Above 37.8C flash point, they become combutible liquids.

You are right that methanol was used a lot in racing because of the anti-knock properties. It's been used forever in American open wheel oval racing to make big time HP. Way back in the day they used to use nitromethane (pop) in qualifying at Indy to get a little more performance.

I remember switching from gas to methanol back when I raced karts in the 70s. The trick was getting a spec carb setup for gas to pump enough methanol so the engine wouldn't seize. It was pretty dicy at times but mostly it worked great. It had big time low end power over gas. Smoked like crazy and had a completely different sound too. These days karts all run spec fuel (gas).

FWIW, the LHS had about 10-12 gals of 30% Wildcat Heli fuel for $21/gal. I only have electrics, but I am considering a 90 nitro next year. Will have to wait and see what happens.

[maxadventure]

I read this thread a few days ago, started wondering if the LHS was on the verge of going to increase their price (after having to fill up my car at $4.09/gal that I'm really not used to). I'm low anyway so I finally made it over and picked up a gallon.

$20.49 (magnum heli plus 30%) - well, that was anticlimactic.

the real irony is my two nitro helis just sacrificed parts for my new electric project, so I only have my other electric to fly right now....

[DavidH]

Probably won't see a price increase on model fuel till the current stock that distributors and dealers have now needs replacing. Nitro has nearly doubled in price over the last two months. So the fuel manufactuers will have to pass that price increase along to the customer. Also Homeland Security has the manufactuers and anyone that has more than 40 gallons of nitro filling out so much paperwork. That it is taking a good bit of time to do that.
That is basically the reason that Angus quit producing nitro that is used for racing and model fuels a couple of years ago. Homeland Security was requiring them to track all the nitro they produced from the time it left there plant till the consumer used it. The NHRA nitro teams have to keep track of the nitro they use now. And a top fuel nitro dragster will burn about 8-10 gallons in a 4 second run down the 1/4 mile. At an NHRA national event. There will be couple thousand gallons of nitro used each event. And I understand that those team are paying close to $3K for a 40 gallon barrel. This is the same 40 gallon barrel they use to pay $1000 for a couple of years ago.
Don Schumacher seems to be the one holding all the nitro. He is importing it directly from China. I believe he is just waiting for NHRA to change the rules on who supplies the nitro and then he is going to release his stockpile for sale to teams.

David

[HeliSmith]

What about using Nitrous Oxide to boost the methanol + glycol ethelne? Is nitrous oxide expensive? I realize this would require a little more weight though.

I was thinking about the diesel thing wouldn't you have to mix in oil? Doesn't it already take 200lbs to bust diesel as is?

[WayneBrown]

As a former engine builder for IHRA guys and myself, I have a pretty good stash of 99% Nitromethane. If VP can't supply Morgan, I can for a week or so.
As long as the barrels are sealed, the fuel lasts indefinitely. Like alcohol, NM is Hygroscopic, meaning it sucks up water, so once opened you have to use it, or destroy it.
One other performance enhancing additive that has been used successfully in lieu of Nitro is polypropylene oxide, which is itself an oxidizer, albeit not as effective as NM it will work in a similar manner. Back when I was heavily into boats, we used 60% Nitro and 20% PO with the balance oil and methanol with excellent results.

[kaan.gok]

Originally Posted by WayneBrown

. Like alcohol, NM is Hygroscopic, meaning it sucks up water, so once opened you have to use it, or destroy it.

What if we open the case, mix 30% with 15%, and use it in a couple of months? (That's what I do). I think it will suck a little of water, but not a dramatic amount while mixing. Or is it already spoiled if a little bit of air touches the fuel for a short period of time?
FYI, I'm already paying 80$ for 30% fuel here, so the best I can do is mix it with 15% fuel or use 15% directly (which does not gives the power as Bob already said, even a flyer at my level feels it).
Don't be worried, you will be flying when fuel prices go up to 76 for a gallon. I wonder what it will cost here? I think (fear) around 200$ for a gallon at current ratio

[WayneBrown]

If you can blend in a conditioned environment (Air Conditioned, humidity controlled) You reduce the risk of water absorption. Of course the faster you accomplish the mix and seal it back up is important too, so even in a garage you should be okay if you don't waste time.
The higher the temperature and relative humidity, the greater the chance of water absorption. Nitro used to be sold in 5 gallon casks for 'recreational' use, so if it's still available, you can up the content in your fuel that way too. Finding a supplier for Polypropylene Oxide may be a cheaper alternative, You will have to experiment with content values to determine where your engine will run best, the boat values above are NOT recommended for helis. Adding any oxidizer to fuel will be some benefit, as that is what Nitro is, simply an oxidizer, just a potent one with a long track record.
Nitrous oxide will not be a viable option for our engines, as it washes away the lubricating oil required to keep the engines from seizing. Already been tried, and a LOT of broken engines resulted.
More efficient tuned pipes and a tighter RPM range will allow the use of lower nitro content, even to include the FAI standard, zero nitro.
Engine heat will be a concern, as will bogging at lower nitro values, but it can be done.
Gasoline conversions to nitro engines is not an option as the compression ratio id too high, however gasoline engines with some modification can be made to produce enormous amounts of torque and respectable horsepower. The trade off is weight and reduced ability to recover from bogging.
Diesels may become an option for Helis, but I cant see it being viable. The RPM at idle will be too high for the clutches to freewheel, and starting will be a bitch.
Tuning will be another nightmare too as you have to change compression as the engine warms up to prevent detonation and self destruction.
I think my spell checker has changed the name of the propylene oxide product, so maybe a chemist enthusiast can correct the name?
We always reffered to it as 'Prop'..

[JimLerch]

Am I the only sick freak that figures if NitroMethane becomes unavailable, I'll just make it myself?

It would make for an interesting science project (not that I need any more hobbies). In the most basic process Conc Nitric Acid is reacted with propane in a 400C environment, and probably in a liquid state..

Dangerous, yes. but I already have Concentrated Nitric Acid on hand from my telescope silvering chemistry adventures. I am aware of the dangers of Nitric acid and the various fulminates that can be fathered with it..

No immidiate interest on my part, but it does not seem beyond the realm of possibilities.

[tz250w]

Be sure to wear your hatcam when you mix up the first batch!

[WayneBrown]

Originally Posted by JimLerch

Am I the only sick freak that figures if NitroMethane becomes unavailable, I'll just make it myself?

Umm, yep. You are pretty much the only one..

[anthony7656]

This is why I switch to E~~~~~~~~~
Did I know, NO but soon as I got in to this hobby fuel and all the mess was worring me but with 600 with NEU 1515 its fine so is 600XL motor.
Well if it goes more then 76 a gallon maybe it might be cheaper to invest into A123 Cell battery with turbo charge????? I'm pretty sure one of HF guy/gal will make a turbo for E-Helis.

[Ed1955]

[QUOTE=JimLerch;705890]Am I the only sick freak that figures if NitroMethane becomes unavailable, I'll just make it myself?

You may want to leave that to the people that operate meth labs. They pretty much have no fear of burning to death in front of their children or with them. Please do video tape if for us though and also make sure any children are at the neighbors house in fire suits! Actually, I read that most chemists couldn't even refine gasoline out of crude oil and that's a natural product. In the United States you can't even possess pure nitro without a Federal Permit so I seriously doubt the government is going to allow folks with chemistry sets to start producing it.

Seriously though, if it were that easy to make don't you think the people whose income depends on the stuff would be making it, like those in the NHRA racing top fuel?

Respectfully,
Ed

[Salamander]

COST OF 30MAGNUM-S: GLOW FUEL 30% MAGNUM HELIPLUS

£19.99 UK POUNDS which equals $38.99 at latest exchange rate!
which includes 17.5% Value Added Tax. Gas for the car is about $10 a gallon.

Now who's hard done by?

[warpspeed]

Whaddya expect from a country that drinks warm beer?
Actually $38 isn't too far off from what I pay for nitro, although we're still a long way away from $10 a gallon gasoline.
(Well, maybe not a long way away)

[Pinecone]

Originally Posted by skigolfmike

They switched to methanol in '65 after the crash and cut the fuel tank size to 40 gallons. McDonald started the race with 110 gal of gas. Part of the reason they changed to methanol was to reduce the explosive fire risk. Most of the field was running methanol anyway. McDonald was trying to run the race without pitstops.

Gas and methanol are both scary fuels. You can't see a methanol fire in daylight. Ask Rick Mears.

As you state, most of the field had already switched due to the ability to use more boost. So we are both right.

Absolutely. I prefer visible flames.

[skigolfmike]

Originally Posted by Pinecone

As you state, most of the field had already switched due to the ability to use more boost. So we are both right.

Absolutely. I prefer visible flames.

The only cars back then that I remember being supercharged were the Novis. (Twin supercharged Offy midget engines) No turbocharging until I think 68 when Bobby Unser won. (because all the turbine cars dropped out)

Methanol cars racing at night are neat though. The blue flames coming out of a sprint car's exhaust when they lift are cool. Only thing is the winged sprint cars don't lift much anymore. Sub 12 second laps at Eldora and they are flat all the way around.