Back to basics ?

[XDAndy]

So,

having been a voyeur of this forum for a while, and recently getting a heli to power up, what about the training wheel basics?

Had a Nexus 30 from 10 years ago, that after a long break I managed to total,

Now gone electric, and have come to the realisation that I can't fly.

Simulator is one thing, but when trying to float my heli is trying to nose plough into the ground. That and slide to the left, where no amount of right aileron will stop it.

And the manual starts with 'hover'

So, how do you do it?

Cheers.

Andy

[Rªzª]

Originally Posted by XDAndy

That and slide to the left, where no amount of right aileron will stop it.

Sounds like your equipment was holding you back. Today's helis are so much more agile you would not have a problem like that. What do you fly now?

[XDAndy]

Hi RaZa,

it's all relatively new. Trying to fly a CopterX Black Angel + training wheels

Hitec Aurora 9 with Optima 9 Rx
Hiteck HG-5000 and HSG 5083MG tail servo
Hitec HS 65HB's x 3 for the rest
Scorpion 15V 60amp LBEC Heli ESC
Scorpion HKII-2221-8 motor

don't think it's the kit, just my lack of skill.

Had it at the shop (a far far away shop) for trimming post build today, and one of the guys there had it up and flying and hovering beatifully on its virgin flight.

Havn't changed a thing on the radio or the model since I got home, and ... um?

My lack of skill I think.

Need a tutor, but ... ...

[patoygolf]

Hello Andy,

I'm new just like you. I had a buddy told me to learn how to hover with the tail boom always facing me until I ran out of battery. I fly an AXE400 and I crashed it a few times even if I had a training gears on the bottom. I hover now without the training gears and I still fly with the tail boom in front of me whether I'm 2 feet or 20 feet. I know that heli flying is harder than airplane. But if you really want to learn fly the tail boom facing you always, then go forward, then back and also don't throw your stick so hard. Easy does it and if you can have someone set your EXPO sticks softly in the middle then hard outside you may control the heli without panicking. the ideal is to land evenly to the ground with the tail boom facing you. So far I'm fortunate to not crash. I hope this helps you.

[extremeshannon]

Welcome back Andy. I got bit by the Heli bug about a year ago and have no one around that can help me learn to fly. I have turned to the internet and this site has helped me. Being new I have found 2 things that helped me learn heli's and learn my heli of choice.

1 Simulator. This make is way cheaper to crash and get the fundamentals down.
2. Radds flight school. This is a 3 day course and your heli doesn't leave the ground for 3 days. This really get you the feel of your heli but tough not to just try and hop around.


Almost forgot my biggest hurdle was flying a heli that wasn't setup right. This is the key to getting off the ground and learning faster.

Good luck

[M52 POWER!]

I just went back to basics. I was doing loops, rolls and fff, even inverted hovering but felt not so confident in slow forward/sideways/backwards flight, noise in landings. I focused on slow figure 8's, squares, etc for days and since then it has really unlocked more tricks that I used to struggle with. Its amazing how fundamental the basics are for advanced maneuvers.

[avionicmic]

I think something happened to your bird on that long ride back, because from what you've described, you have a aileron servo not working properly. If you are giving full input to right cyclic and you of course have some head speed and control authority, she'll roll right into the ground. I think you know how to fly, you just need some SIM TIME....or if your like me, you fly the crap out of co-axials and really work on orientation. You'll get the hang of it..just don't give up!
Also check your head set up. Even if someone else did it for you. Look here on the freak for finless bob's set ups. If there is not a copter X set up vids and info I would use the the t-rex videos and set ups, there pretty much the same as far as I can tell. Good luck!

[60something]

Originally Posted by Rªzª

Sounds like your equipment was holding you back. Today's helis are so much more agile you would not have a problem like that. What do you fly now?

This statement is just nonsense.

[Lottomunch]

One thing that has helped me immensely is to make the sim harder.

Try throwing in turbulence and increase the speed of the sim. If you can perform whatever with those bucking you around then I find it's almost ALWAYS easier in real life. It's a bit more time but I learned just how "euphoric" the sim was when I tried to learn inverted hovering with it. Crashed at least 3-4 times before I figured this out.

O...and one final thing. Don't give up. It's one heck of a bumpy road. Just stick with it and you'll get there.

[clicky]

Originally Posted by Lottomunch

...
O...and one final thing. Don't give up. It's one heck of a bumpy road. Just stick with it and you'll get there.

Pure psychology: five days in a row you can't do something no matter how hard you're trying it - but if you come out and 6th and try same again - it might come out on its own

[slamdance]

Hey Andy, you are getting a lot of good advice here.
1.) M52 say's work on you basics before doing loops/rolls. I've been doing that myself during my progression(although, I never ever intended to invert...got to the point where there was nothing left for me to do). Once, you can do forward motion don't forget sideways and backwards. If you don't, and just go to loops/rolls you might end up like my friends at the field. They become sport flyers for 5 to 10 years. Crashing now/then when they get brave enough to attempt a piro flip. Ultimately, ending up flying their foamie planks more than heli.
2.) Lottomuch say's making the sim tougher. It totally agree with that, and always try to "dirty up" my sim model. In addition, to flying at 140% physics. I think the sim is originally designed for GAMERS. They don't fly real airplanes/heli's, they just want to have fun and rack up points. This is useless for us real rc aircraft flyers. So don't be afraid to invest time to "tweak" all the sim settings and even sim tx pitch and throttle curves to be more realistic or harder.

[DKS_ONE]

Originally Posted by 60something

This statement is just nonsense.

Care to elaborate?

[60something]

Originally Posted by DKS_ONE

Care to elaborate?

Not really - it stands as it is - Shluter Champion, the orignal series of Miniature Aircraft Helis, others of the type were all just as capable. Nobody was flying 3D at that time, not because the helis couldn't do it (within the limits of scale in gas powered helis). The emphasis on the older machines was in F3C and they were set up for that - lot more scale work too. One of my flying buddies actually got movie roles for his helis, flying stand-in in Toronto's business district with his Jet Ranger and Agusta for action shots.

[DKS_ONE]

Originally Posted by Rªzª

Sounds like your equipment was holding you back. Today's helis are so much more agile you would not have a problem like that. What do you fly now?

Originally Posted by 60something

This statement is just nonsense.

Originally Posted by DKS_ONE

Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by 60something

Not really - it stands as it is - Shluter Champion, the orignal series of Miniature Aircraft Helis, others of the type were all just as capable. Nobody was flying 3D at that time, not because the helis couldn't do it (within the limits of scale in gas powered helis). The emphasis on the older machines was in F3C and they were set up for that - lot more scale work too. One of my flying buddies actually got movie roles for his helis, flying stand-in in Toronto's business district with his Jet Ranger and Agusta for action shots.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily out to agree or disagree with either statement. I just wondered why you would disagree I kinda thought that the older equipment may not have necessarily held him back, but at the same time the newer equipment (I would have to agree) would be more agile and capable. Again, not that I have experience, I've only been at this for about a year, but just the knowledge of what has happened in the realm of technology in general over the last ten years, not just helis, kinda suggests it.

[60something]

Originally Posted by DKS_ONE

Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily out to agree or disagree with either statement. I just wondered why you would disagree I kinda thought that the older equipment may not have necessarily held him back, but at the same time the newer equipment (I would have to agree) would be more agile and capable. Again, not that I have experience, I've only been at this for about a year, but just the knowledge of what has happened in the realm of technology in general over the last ten years, not just helis, kinda suggests it.

THe key lies in his own observation:

Now gone electric, and have come to the realisation that I can't fly.

This is platform independent - yes a sloppy heli may have hindered him ( I don't know the specifics of the Nexus 30) but flying a heli is about a couple of things, regardless of the machine: 1) a properly set up and properly trimmed machine 2) acquisition of the appropriate flying skills for that machine. His original comment was brief enough we only know that the point number 2 is probably true -(he admits it) We don't know about point one.

The basic mechanics of modern model helis hasn't changed much in 30 years - most are flying with refined variations on some standard designs that evolved in the mid '70s. What has changed is the motive power - electrics have now developed phenomenal power/weight ratios that weren't available then. As a result, heli flying (and planks too) have gone beyond the flying on the wing state to flying on the prop. ie. drag the body around on a high powered motor/propellor. His described deficiencies point to a self-diagnosed inability to fly the model. Assuming the model was properly trimmed out, it wasn't the model that was holding him back, it was the flying.

Without trying to belabour the point, a general dismissal about older technology is just a throwaway. It isn't necessarily true, and mostly it isn't correct either. To use the Champion as an example, there isn't too much difference between it and most 60 sized gas powered helis fliying today. Back in its peak, you wouldn't fly it in the style of 3D, because nobody flew in that style (in fact most pilots would have thought it to be an absurd way to treat a machine... ). Now, the Champion, like most gas powered helis, tended to be a bit overbuilt - and is farily heavy ( abt 10-12 lb flying weight), so manouevers are going to require big air, but precision was still very possible. Certainly, some work would have to be done on it to fly 3D, because it wasn't designed for that, but it wouldn't take much to get it to that state.

What has changed, are the radios. My Champion is/was set up with a Futaba FG series radio - and a rate gyro that contained a gyroscopic motor, not an inertial transducer like the current stuff. That would hold you back to some extent because you had less flexibility in mixing options and the gyro was a rate box, not an HH gyro, but that meant you had to spend a lot more time to set up the heli and dial out the demons. If you didn't, you couldn't override them in the Tx.

Much of what I see in 3D is a lot of hauling the heli around on an overspun rotor, with very little flying precision. A lot of what I read here on HF is a lot of Tx fiddling to force the heli to behave rather than trimming the machine. In contrast, F3C and the flying style of the older machines and practices was all about precision. I'm not saying one is better than the other- they're different styles and its "just a hobby", but there is a big lack of flying skill evident in much of the 3D flying. Based on power/weight, many of the newer helis can outdance the older ones, but can't out fly them. Older helis didn't limit you in learning that, only your flying time, wallet depth and mechanical skill did that. IMO, too many guys jump too fast into 3D and messing around with the power (dangerously, IMO) before really learning to fly the bird, which I think is unfortunate. If you truly do have the chance to see a good pilot not only play the sticks in 3D, but also actually be able to fly the bird when its not doing 3D you'll understand instantly what I'm talking about - it will be that obvious. For most of the electrics flying them is tough - they're not that big and it takes real work to be able to move them with grace. Anyway - didn't want to make a big deal about it, because I wasn't trying to take a shot at raza. Flying helis is a bit of a soapbox of mine tho...

[DKS_ONE]

Well said, I didn't completely disagree with your statement of being held back by older equipment being nonsense, but nor did I necessarily disagree that the older equipment (to a degree) may have been holding him back. I can completely agree that by the pilot's own admission there is a lack of ability (which I can also admit to when it comes to many techniques ) that is likely the key factor. The only thing that is a bit of a pet peeve to me is that someone on a forum would shut someone else down without supporting their side in any way. It's mostly because I'm still learning alot and knowing both sides of an opinion greatly helps me to understand more about this hobby. So given that you have gone into a great description of why you suggested what you did, I can now understand how you think the way you do and why. Thanks very much for going into the detail you did BTW, I'm basically a noob myself (like I said, almost a year at this) and hearing from someone who has been around a while like yourself is always an opportunity I like to take advantage of. I don't understand the complexities and specifications behind alot of the equipment that is used now, only what they do. I don't know that I'll ever get the knowledge to understand exactly what's inside all the little electrical boxes and how they function, but the more info I can learn the better in my books. I hope my comments were never taken as a jab of any kind, I really am just trying to understand more as I go and really do try to see things from both sides of an opinion in order to better understand it myself. Fly on Freaks! Fly on...

[60something]

Years ago, I used to sell the major brands of helis - Miniature Aircraft, Kyosho, Kavan, Hirobo, Schluter, as well as all of the other names in R/C. The big difference we used to see between the plank fliers and the heli fliers was that the plank fliers came in to get a kit and go off and learn to fly a plane - started with a trainer, learned all the basics, and slowly refined their skills until they moved up into symmetrical wings and then branched out into whatever - pattern, pylon, scale or just fun fliers. But they all had something in common - they all could fly the plane. Most of the trainers and all of the scale birds had to be flown on the wing, not on the prop.

The heli noobs were invariably interested in buying the sizzle - buying into the dream and mystique. Very few had any interest in flying, or any knowledge of flight dynamics either. Usually, they'd dump down a ton of cash, head out with the kit and be back in a week for parts. They'd do that once or twice, then the next time you saw them, they'd be in for a gas-powered car. Not really interested in the flying machine. We'd get the odd customer who actually was interested in learning to fly the heli, and as long as his budget held up, he'd be painfully back to rebuild, and eventually he was in for other helis - he'd learn to fly them.

I see a lot of the former here on HF and on u-tube, especially in the world of 3D. Again, not making a judgment, just an observation - its still a hobby and its up to each of us to enjoy it as we will. But I find it a little sad to know a lot of overbuilt, overpowered, over equipped little marvels will get screwed in once, twice, then abandoned, as the owner gives up, never having taken the time to learn the satisfaction. not only of honking it around the sky, but being able to finesse it smoothly and poetically under complete control. There's a u-tube video of a trex 250 filmed in slo-mo - the grace of the little heli in flight in slow motion is a treat to watch. Not many guys know that they can be flown like that in real time - takes skill is all. I'll post the video if I can find it.

I'll relate a little story about flying skill in R/C: some years ago, an r/c flier (former world champ pattern flier, and MAAC pres for a number of years) was putting on a pattern flying display at the Nelson arena complex in Burlington Ontario for some public event -can't remember what it was exactly. There was a large crowd (the venue is in a residential area - he was flying from a soccer field adjacent to the arena). After taking off he put the plane (60 sizehigh performance aerobatic ship) in a series of low level manouevers over and around the small field, impressive in its own right due to the small space (we're talking a 120mph plane here). That day was heavy overcast, and at one point as he was moving over the field to set up for the next trick, the plane disappeared into low cloud, headed out and away from the flying field. The fliers amongst us just about sh*t bricks, figuing this could not end well. The audience just sort of gasped, and we all just waited. And waited. And waited... picturing the headlines in tomorrow's paper about the runaway r/c plane that torpedoed somebody in town "right out of the sky". Finally, we saw the plane drop out of the cloud in a lazy spin way out from the field. Warren powered it up and smoothly brought it home, did a victory roll and set it down neatly on the soccer field in front of the crowd, which just roared at the display of skill.

After the show, I asked Warren how the hell he saved the plane, knowing full well most of us would have lost it. He said that when it disappeared, he remembered the last command he gave it, and from that put it in a vertical climb, then idled it back, and waited for it to spin out of the cloud - when it did, and he knew where to look, he simply powered up and brought it home. That's flying the machine, I would hope that new pilots would embrace the discipline and the skills to be able to bring their toy home, with grace and skill after whatever they've asked it to do. Add the finishing touch!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGd9scpRp0[/ame]

[M52 POWER!]

Unfortunately for me I enjoy building these little helicopters more than flying them. It's hard for me to "force" myself to stick with the sim.

[DKS_ONE]

Cool story man, sounds like a nail biter! Haha! Well, I see your angle and I know that recently I have been forcing myself to really focus on the basics and try and learn all my orientations real well before taking any real further steps forward (be it 3D or otherwise). I gotta say, there's something about the talent in flipping a heli all over the place in crazy orientations with absolute accuracy that leaves me wanting to learn some real 3D flight. But, I really enjoy seeing the finesse and detail in alot of scale models as well, particularly Airwolf models (I know, sooooo overplayed right). Your insight is duely noted and I add it to my collection of knowledge and am inspired to focus on the flight factor a bit more than I may have before.

[clicky]

Maybe we all are forgetting one thing about this hobby: it has really steep learning curve. So, every little really helps. Overpowered motor on a first, training helicopter makes huge difference when beginner put himself in a strange orientation and needs to bail out. Really good, expensive gyro helps holding tail and even correcting it after it has been blown out due to really clumsy collective management. Bad gyro would just let the tail go and that can cause for beginner to loose orientation. Metal geared servos strip less than karbonite ones. There are lots of things where new, better equipment can contribute to easier flying over what was there 5+ years ago. So, comment was (at least to the extent) correct that old, fragile, underpowered, equipment can hold someone back - if nothing else newer, overpowered can help with confidence...

Issue of people being able to take shortcuts and go into what they call '3D' (which usually it isn't) straight away is nothing new. It was always like that - any hobby or profession. Some people are talented and can skip steps, some are really systematic, but majority of us are just half lazy and eager to get somewhere quickly...