When will the bottom fall out of the RC heli market?

[runtim23]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Sure, a box of plastic and a handful of screws is worth $500. No problem.

Yes, I misspelled comprehension. You got me. Now try again at the rest of it. As I have stated, development costs have been minimal because advances have been incremental. Your second point is moot because of #1. And #3 is true only as long as customers stand for it, AND THEN THE BOTTOM FALLS OUT. wth

So your whole point is to suggest helicopter consumers should value the product less because there has been little advance in recent design? I imagine even if no new models were released, the luster might slowly fade? I don't see it. To me it would be more affected by external forces, than the communities' value of their hobby.

And I don't think a business would lower prices solely because it's costing them less to make it, unless they could lower it to a level where more demand could be produced in this niche market, which would be an unnecessary risk among competitors. Especially when there are so many other variables attached that could be slowing demand, lipos, gas, radios, software etc.

[utrinque]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

How dare you state the truth? LOL

Wait, man. If we consider that in 1980 a $500 (today's $) cost $2000 and that with inflation that would be $5000 and that we earned less then so it would be actually worth $10000 (but we can't explain this to young whippersnappers because they don't understand simple math from FOX News), then we would all understand that todays kits are an incredible value.

I envy youngsters sometimes. Job market becomes tough, but they will have nicer toys...

In 1980 I was ten living in comunist country. RC radio was a dream... I have found a book from 1986 about helis in Polish. I would not dare to fly those Japanese and German RC helis. Progress is huge.

[TowPilot]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

LOL Hey guys, I never started a 'prices sure were cheaper in the good ole days' thread, did I? You guys did that. You got your pseudo math to go along.

Whatever. I really don't give a rat's ass what RC helicopters cost in 1980. Okay? Learn to read and then come back to this thread. Reading is more than literacy, you know, it is also about comprehension.

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Oh good grief, and I guess your pay hasn't gone up in 30 years? Jesus Christ, I hoped to have an intelligent discussion here.

And please begin by being respectful of forum participants.

Mike

[rcnorth]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Note: We talk at my club about getting new members... When it costs $100+ just to join AMA and a club, then 100s or 1000s to be active, then you are not going to have huge numbers of people flocking to join, sorry. Then you present them with the market as it is, as previously stated: cheap junk or invest your children's future, your choice! LOL

You mention getting new people into the hobby, & the market that is presented to them.......People talk about how good that market is now for new people, compared to 10+ years ago when few people could afford to get into the hobby, and you say this has no relevance on the topic? Then go on to insult your fellow helifreaks on their comprehension or whatever......sorry but you seem to have forgotten about the "respect" part in some of your reply's.

[fourbie]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Note: This is not meant to be provocative.

It seems to me that most heli kits cost way too much.

So by that old and undoubtedly accurate way of thinking, helis are obviously not too expensive, since we are all paying and the latest/greatest models are in short supply.

I started thinking about this today after realizing a couple aluminum servo frames for my Protos are over $50.

What do all of you think?

When you realize that the contents of almost any kit could not possibly value over $100 to $200 (excluding electronics), then you begin to wonder why they all arrive at this, say, 300%-500%, profit. How coincidental that they all need margins like that to be solvent when other businesses do just fine on 15%?

We don't need HK junk for el cheapo and everything else at huge multiples. We need good quality items priced fairly!

Then you present them with the market as it is, as previously stated: cheap junk or invest your children's future, your choice! LOL

Don't even get me started on batteries! I can get the best car battery on the market for less than a "good" 6S 2650. WTF?

Oh well, back to plastic servo mounts on my Protos!

I am replying to this without reading the thread so as not to be swayed by other comments. Plus you did ask!!!
I remember times when micro parts were unthinkable yet today we fiddle about with the tiniest of stuff that I am thinking of investing in a surgical microscope. SO I guess much of the cost used to be in tooling but, as we have seen with 3D printers, tooling surely must be less of an issue in the computer generated age.
So what is it?
Ultimately there must be limiting factors like labour costs, shipping and material costs.

However, to write off cheaper items like HK is to ignore basic fliers like me and the future because thanks to the likes of mall helis the interest grows and that leads to research/development.

Many posts on here seem to decry cheaper heli equipment and only advocate the top of the range - I find that generally unrealistic. As an everyday person I would not be able to enjoy flying a helicopter if it were not for cheapo kits and frankly I do not see the need for, nor have the desire for, top of the range equipment. To be put off a kit because the canopy is cheap looking or not wonderful to look at is unbelievable. There is a tipping point and most of today's costly kits are well past that point. Nice to own yes, nice to show off yes, nice to fly yes, great if you are a professional and earning a living at shows but in my case totally unaffordable.

People are paying for the expensive stuff for more complex reasons than quality. Mass hysteria springs to mind, keeping up with the crowd too, unhealthy materialistic ownership to name a few.

I've had what I think would be described as quality stuff, radios, kits etc. mainly because it was damn costly to get anything anyway and much of todays cheap kit knocks spots off the top of the range yesteryear equipment. An example is the flysky Tx FS-TH9XB. Now I have that I have stopped lusting after expensive radios.

Cheap and junk do not have to go hand in glove.

And really, what is wrong with using plastic servo mounts???

The only area where I think I would spend more is on everything battery. I have perhaps one exception to my philosopy; one day a battery will come along that gives me 30 minutes flight time and I will buy it - not because it is a good looking block of chemistry but because that is what it would take to make me enjoy electric helicopter flight.

[seefest]

Originally Posted by Cincinnatus

Oh,come on, man, how much was a cell phone then? My employer got me one in about '92 if iirc, and the bill was about $300 - $400 per month and it was a brick phone that hardly worked if I left the city. Yours is not a good example. Hell, a Corvette was like $4000 in 1970, I think, so it must be a good value now at 20 times the price? Pardon me, but that is irrelevant to the current discussion. That has to do with inflation, etc.

His example is an excellent example. We are living in the golden age of RC and it's only getting better AND cheaper. You don't realize it because most likely you haven't been involved in RC for as long as some of us.
My dad's first collective pitch heli cost around $1000 in 1972.(kit, radio, motor, etc). You could buy a Volvo for around 3K back then. $1000 in 1972 is approximately 10K in today's money!
How many production helis cost 10K today?

RC helis are a low volume business. I seriously doubt, any heli manufacturer could exist on a 10-15% profit margin. But then again, we're assuming their profit margin is higher.

[wab223]

Originally Posted by rcnorth

For us north of the border the price's just jumped up 12% because of our dollar.

I know. I was ready to finally buy a Skookum after humming and haring for about 6 weeks at least. But the Canadian buggas prices are in USD. Whats all that about? Now I can't make my mind up again.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I just got involved in RC. But you are worried about something that means zero. You don't need RC helicopters. No one does. The fact that you can get them at all means something is OK with the world. The fact that you think it's OK to complain about perceived unfair pricing (which in your mind seems to mean you should get it for what it costs to be made...unrealistic, but I will work with it) is just pathetic in how it reveals the bubble you are trapped within.

I am an adult over 40, and I have been involved in my share of small run manufacturing. It ain't cheap, that's for sure. And when it does get cheap, you are quickly into the 1000's of minimum pieces. Factories don't make huge runs of these sorts of things without payment, hoping most of this new inventory will sell. Helicopter companies pay for the RnD, set up, prototying, fixing of first run flaws, etc.

OK, so you don't get all that is behind modern manufacturing...except that when everything is running well...things can be cheaply made by the 10's of 1000's. But now thanks to others, you should get it...the prices reflect what is necessary a.) to get huge runs of parts made in the first place and b.) to make sure that even if a fraction of the total made sell, there is still possibly a net profit.



If all helicopters were made custom, you would pay about what you pay for anything else custom made...by the hour, and in the 1000's of dollars. That is with anything, knifes, guns, cars, etc. Materials costs are pretty minimal relative to what it costs to get the skills of someone capable of designing and machining the parts to a well-flying helicopter (or perfect pistol, or most amazing folding knife, or most fantastic 454 running on the street). Those helicopters will also remain pricey. But still, you do get what you pay for most times...helicopters are probably no exception. I don't know, but seems a logical hunch.



Your beef should be with things more readily seen as evil gouging, and forget your perceived complaints with profiteering in RC helicopters, or anything else completely frivolous. No one needs a folding knife made of Ti and damascus steel...so I could care less if some sell for as much as 5K. But no one is filthy rich from making RC helicopters, nor from selling them, nor from making knives, or custom trail bikes, or custom clocks, or custom guns. The fact that one can make a living doing these things is already good enough for the world.

There is price fixing in everything from medical care to gasoline, and profiteering wherever there is a perceived opportunity. Most of the examples in the world are worse than anything happening in RC.

But price gouging that affects the poor...or anyone's standard of living...or chance of achieving happiness...that's what you should fight against.

I hope you spend much more energy fighting against wasting your tax dollars on killing people with remote control airplanes (also probably overpriced?), subsidising commercial farming and petrol companies, or giving tax breaks folks who don't work at all.

How about fighting for equitable public schools, or for a health care system that is not about profit, or a university system that was affordable AND effective?








I read somewhere recently that Align may have as much as 70% of the RC helicopter market cornered. Is this true?

obi

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by TowPilot

And please begin by being respectful of forum participants.

Mike

Okay, my apologies to CrashAndBurn. Seriously. To me it was just like a bunch of guys arguing about football or whatever, but the tone and nature maybe are not obvious here so...

It is interesting that when I was told to just shut up now and other insults, that those are apparently okay to you? I am not really sure where the line is, and it seems you are being kinda arbitrary.

Like I implied, though, there was no offense intended on my part, and none taken at the jabs hurled at me.

[wab223]

Originally Posted by seefest

His example is an excellent example. We are living in the golden age of RC.

I'm glad we are living in the golden age of something, because I tell ya I don't see too many examples of golden ages in much else.

EDIT: But you know I am taking you slightly out of context due to an attempt at a sense of humour.

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by rcnorth

You mention getting new people into the hobby, & the market that is presented to them.......People talk about how good that market is now for new people, compared to 10+ years ago when few people could afford to get into the hobby, and you say this has no relevance on the topic? Then go on to insult your fellow helifreaks on their comprehension or whatever......sorry but you seem to have forgotten about the "respect" part in some of your reply's.

Okay, let me try to be succinct and then let's finally let the "olden days" argument die:

Whether an item costs more or less than it used to, that has no bearing on whether it is a good value. To state that something is a good value simply because it costs less than it used to is ridiculous and illogical.

My assertion was that heli stuff is way overpriced. Some people wanted to go off on that silly tangent, though. Perhaps I was a little rude. Some of them were not exactly gentlemen either. But, as I have stated to Mike, I took it all in stride and did not take offense and did not mean to cause offense.

[Steve Evans]

I suspect a lot more money is made selling the really cheap RTF junk you can pick up in the toy aisle of your local supermarket, than the models and associated kit we're interested in... and they're very cheap indeed.

Steve

[sarpilot]

Originally Posted by vteknical

I thought the market fell out when I stopped paying 65.00 for a 20C 3S lipo 5 years ago. In all fairness, there has never been a better time to get into this hobby. Decent entry level products are light years ahead of mid level stuff from 5-10years ago.

Yep to that...

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

[wab223]

OP,

OK this is getting deep.

The price of helis in the US may well go down. Alan Greenspan is promoting the "fact" that US white collar workers earn too much. They need a pay reduction to level the playing field. This is a good thing because those that design helis will be paid less reducing the initial cost of American made helis.

Also the ability of (I'm guesing here) a percentage of those in the US heli hobby to support current prices will diminish. Way to go Mr Greenspan, its a win for everyone in the golden age of RC helis. (sorry seefest)

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by runtim23

So your whole point is to suggest helicopter consumers should value the product less because there has been little advance in recent design? .

No, I suggest that since there have been few advances that imagined R&D costs cannot justify exorbitant prices.

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by Obijuan Kenobe

I just got involved in RC. But you are worried about something that means zero. You don't need RC helicopters. No one does. The fact that you can get them at all means something is OK with the world. The fact that you think it's OK to complain about perceived unfair pricing (which in your mind seems to mean you should get it for what it costs to be made...unrealistic, but I will work with it) is just pathetic in how it reveals the bubble you are trapped within.

Mike? Where art thou? I mean, we are all 12 years old and I am deeply offended here.

LOL

I never said it should be sold at cost. If you think a box of plastic, fiber, and some screws are worth $800 make a valid argument, but please don't distort my argument to make your lack of one seem correct.

You make valid statements in your op, but you miss the point. I am not trying to change the world, cure it of its every injustice...starting with rc helis...lol I just think the prices are way too high. That's all.

[utrinque]

I can get Gartt GT700 DFC kit without canopy directly from the factory for $175.
At Hobbyking price with canopy is $215
At Aliexpress the same kit is $295
Price at Amazon was around $450
Aerodyne was considering it as Chaos 700 v2 probably they would give you $550 price tag.

Do you catch my drift?

Prices in webshops are few times higher than ex-factory prices.

"You get what you pay for" Really?

[Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted by fourbie

However, to write off cheaper items like HK is to ignore basic fliers like me and the future because thanks to the likes of mall helis the interest grows and that leads to research/development.

Many posts on here seem to decry cheaper heli equipment and only advocate the top of the range - I find that generally unrealistic. As an everyday person I would not be able to enjoy flying a helicopter if it were not for cheapo kits and frankly I do not see the need for, nor have the desire for, top of the range equipment. To be put off a kit because the canopy is cheap looking or not wonderful to look at is unbelievable. There is a tipping point and most of today's costly kits are well past that point. Nice to own yes, nice to show off yes, nice to fly yes, great if you are a professional and earning a living at shows but in my case totally unaffordable.
.

You make a lot of good points. Your comment about being past the tipping point is exactly what I was trying to say. It is mind-boggling that so many responders seem to think otherwise, and don't understand that it is prohibitive to the advancement of the hobby.

[Atomic Skull]

Originally Posted by Crash_Expert

I see the points the OP is making.

A 700 costs $800

Blade 700x = $799
Goblin 700 = $799
Synergy E7 = $850
Compass 7HV = $800 w/ blades
Thunder Tiger E700 = $699

They are all in the $800 range +-

$429 for a TSA Infusion 700 Pro. Though the $519 version that comes with a licensed BeastX is actually a better deal because if you subtract the $199 that the BeastX retails for you're getting a 700 airframe for $320.

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...FdNrfgodSnAABQ

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...FRSUfgodTEYARw

Originally Posted by Crash_Expert

A set of 700 blades are all around $100.

It is as if the size to price ratio is a standard for everything in this hobby......

Hobbyking has the RJX 690mm blades for $53 a set from the US warehouse.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html

[utrinque]

"'Join the army,' they said."
"'See the world,' they said."
"I'd rather be sailing."

Actually I got my 1m yacht:

My favourite lake:

HobbyKing - Phantom Sail Boat (4 min 10 sec)

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arehouse_.html