CGY750 Expert Settings effects

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by FredRX

Thanks for this helpful thread

I still do not understand something: if you want to lower your aileron roll rate for instance: what's the difference between adjusting the AFR (on transmitter, or even on the CGY 750 through Ail.Rate) and tuning the Ang.Rate parameter ?? I know there's a relation between the two params with no doubt, but which one ?
Any idea ?

holy crap my first sticky!!! man its true people will take advice from just about anyone, even me

I want to echo what wbplomp said but expand on the Ang.Rate a bit. The Ang.Rate affects the speed of the roll while the AFR affects how far the servo/swash will move. There is a base rate for every size/flight mode in the back of the manual that will read like 300d/s. I believe this is based on your AFR + Ang. Rate....therefore lowering your Ang.Rate (set to 100% by default) slows down the roll or you can increase it to a max of 150% to speed it up.

Right now i'm playing setting my AFR to around 9.5 degrees but with only 70% Ang.Rate. I figure I can play with my DR a bit to lower the cyclic without affecting the roll speed too much. To be honest even at 100% with 9.5 degrees and a reduced Ang.Rate...the heli feels very good and not too aggressive...

Does that make sense

[FredRX]

Originally Posted by joe1l

I figure I can play with my DR a bit to lower the cyclic without affecting the roll speed too much.

1/ Congralutations for the sticky !

2/ That's my point actually: if you reduce the AFR on the CGY (reducing the max cyclic servos' arms movement allowed for the module), you necessarily impact the roll rate !
So what's the reason for having an additional parameter (Ang.Rate) for managing the roll rate ??

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by FredRX

1/ Congralutations for the sticky !

2/ That's my point actually: if you reduce the AFR on the CGY (reducing the max cyclic servos' arms movement allowed for the module), you necessarily impact the roll rate !
So what's the reason for having an additional parameter (Ang.Rate) for managing the roll rate ??

This is only a theory of mine based on testing!
Well from what i experienced and have seen, and this is what i was trying to get at with my other post about cycling through size and flight modes etc, the 750 seems to try to maintain that roll rate Ang.Base i.e. 300d/s regardless the amount of cyclic pitch available. So if you are in Flight Mode 3 with a heli sized 600/700 and you initially setup your heli to have 10 degrees of cyclic, the 750 will calculate how fast it needs to move the swash to achieve the Ang.Base of 300d/s (on ail). If you reduce the cyclic down to 8 degrees it will then need to speed up the swash a bit to compensate for reduction in available pitch. Whereas if you adjust the Ang.Rate in the expert menu from say 100% down to 50%, you will slow down the speed or max speed of roll or increase it to above 100% to 150% you will have increased it without changing how much available cyclic pitch. This is just my theory but based on what i have seen and research i've done on other FBL systems it seems to make sense.

Let me compare it to the VBAR, where your roll rate based is based on what you have your agility is set to. During the vbar setup they have the user measure 8 degrees exactly on Aileron but only so the vbar knows exactly where 8 degrees is. This doesn't impact the amount of cyclic pitch you have or your roll rate. Instead the vbar allows as much cyclic pitch as it needs to achieve the roll rate that is set by agility setting you choose. For instance when i measured my cyclic pitch for ail on my X5 it went as high as 14 degrees. At first i was confused thinking had to be wrong but as i researched i saw that vbar basically will just use as much cyclic as needed to achieve the roll rate set by the agility slider.

[wbplomp]

Originally Posted by joe1l

This is only a theory of mine based on testing!
Well from what i experienced and have seen, and this is what i was trying to get at with my other post about cycling through size and flight modes etc, the 750 seems to try to maintain that roll rate Ang.Base i.e. 300d/s regardless the amount of cyclic pitch available. So if you are in Flight Mode 3 with a heli sized 600/700 and you initially setup your heli to have 10 degrees of cyclic, the 750 will calculate how fast it needs to move the swash to achieve the Ang.Base of 300d/s (on ail). If you reduce the cyclic down to 8 degrees it will then need to speed up the swash a bit to compensate for reduction in available pitch. Whereas if you adjust the Ang.Rate in the expert menu from say 100% down to 50%, you will slow down the speed or max speed of roll or increase it to above 100% to 150% you will have increased it without changing how much available cyclic pitch. This is just my theory but based on what i have seen and research i've done on other FBL systems it seems to make sense.

Let me compare it to the VBAR, where your roll rate based is based on what you have your agility is set to. During the vbar setup they have the user measure 8 degrees exactly on Aileron but only so the vbar knows exactly where 8 degrees is. This doesn't impact the amount of cyclic pitch you have or your roll rate. Instead the vbar allows as much cyclic pitch as it needs to achieve the roll rate that is set by agility setting you choose. For instance when i measured my cyclic pitch for ail on my X5 it went as high as 14 degrees. At first i was confused thinking had to be wrong but as i researched i saw that vbar basically will just use as much cyclic as needed to achieve the roll rate set by the agility slider.

That may be so. But I am almost sure, but of course not 100% sure, the CGY750 wil never go above the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate because of mechanically binding. I don't know if your describe the same. Just a note.

I find this post interesting but somewhat confusing. Suppose you just start with a brand new setup. For instance a 550 sized heli. At first you just don't know how long your cyclic servo arms need to be and how much cyclic pitch for the CGY750. But let's say your manual says the following...

- Use 17mm servo arms for your cyclic servos
- Configure 12 degrees of collective pitch
- Configure 7 degrees of cyclic pitch or 9 degrees of cyclic pitch for advanced pilots

You follow the manual of your heli and the CGY750. You select the right model size and flight mode 3. You then configure the PIT.Rate on your CGY750 to have exactly 12 degrees of collective pitch. You then configure the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate to get exactly 8 degrees of cyclic pitch. When you fly the heli you notice the cyclic agility is to high or does not work wel. In this case, let's not talk about expo.

Suppose you want to decrease the cyclic agility. What are the options?

1. You can select a lower flight mode.
2. You can lower your D/R (or AFR) on the radio for the cyclic channels.
3. You can configure ??? on your CGY750 ???

Suppose you want to increase the cyclic agility. What are the options?

1. You can select a higher flight mode
2. You can increase your D/R (or AFR) on the radio for the cyclic channel as long as your cyclic pitch range can keep up. The CGY750 needs room to correct movements. If for some reason it doesn't, you have to increase the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate on your CGY750 as well.
3. You can configure ??? on your CGY750 ???

What do you think?

What I find only a little bit confusing is that the manual says 8 degrees of cyclic is a good place to start with. Ok, but what next. The tail is simple, get the max out of your pitch slider and lower or increase your D/R (or AFR) on your radio to increase or decrease the piroette rate.

[FredRX]

Originally Posted by wbplomp

That may be so. But I am almost sure, but of course not 100% sure, the CGY750 wil never go above the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate because of mechanically binding. I don't know if your describe the same. Just a note.

I totally agree: I can't imagine the CGY750 going beyond the *.Rate which - as far as I understood - represent the mechanical limits of the head. OK, if you've set 8 degrees or so, there's probably some margin to go above. But if one has set the Rates at the very maximum actual mechanical limits (i.e. at binding limit), the module simply can't decide to go above !

[wbplomp]

Originally Posted by FredRX

I totally agree: I can't imagine the CGY750 going beyond the *.Rate which - as far as I understood - represent the mechanical limits of the head. OK, if you've set 8 degrees or so, there's probably some margin to go above. But if one has set the Rates at the very maximum actual mechanical limits (i.e. at binding limit), the module simply can't decide to go above !

What I think is that the 8 degrees cyclic you set is probably enough for most models to give enough cyclic rate for flight mode 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Think of the 8 degrees cyclic pitch will give you for example approximately 500d/sec. Again, just an example. You can keep it that way and use D/R (or AFR) or a flight mode to change the agility according your desires. If for some reason this is not enough or too high for you, you can change the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate. Or... not to forget, change it because of mechanically binding.

The only question remains. This is for your preference. But how do you recognise if the Rate you set is the optimal degree for your CGY750 itself. There is always an optimal setup.

[Steve Evans]

ANG.Rate is described as "This parameter adjusts the roll rate by the elevator/aileron control. Set the values to match the roll rate of the helicopter.".

I believe that the system will perform best if it makes effective use of the available cyclic pitch without hitting a limit. The above description rather makes sense in that you want the CGY750 to use all the available cyclic, but to do so progressively over the range of cyclic stick input. If the ANG.Rate is too high I suspect the system will hit the mechanical limits at moderate stick movements, whereas if it's too low, you'll not make full use of the cyclic.

As the gyro reports the max angular speed on both AIL and ELE it should be quite straightforward to set the cyclic to the desired amount (7-9 deg) and then wind up the ANG.Rate until it has no more effect on the reported max angular speed, and then back it off a little.

Steve

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by wbplomp

That may be so. But I am almost sure, but of course not 100% sure, the CGY750 wil never go above the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate because of mechanically binding. I don't know if your describe the same. Just a note.

I find this post interesting but somewhat confusing. Suppose you just start with a brand new setup. For instance a 550 sized heli. At first you just don't know how long your cyclic servo arms need to be and how much cyclic pitch for the CGY750. But let's say your manual says the following...

- Use 17mm servo arms for your cyclic servos
- Configure 12 degrees of collective pitch
- Configure 7 degrees of cyclic pitch or 9 degrees of cyclic pitch for advanced pilots

You follow the manual of your heli and the CGY750. You select the right model size and flight mode 3. You then configure the PIT.Rate on your CGY750 to have exactly 12 degrees of collective pitch. You then configure the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate to get exactly 8 degrees of cyclic pitch. When you fly the heli you notice the cyclic agility is to high or does not work wel. In this case, let's not talk about expo.

Suppose you want to decrease the cyclic agility. What are the options?

1. You can select a lower flight mode.
2. You can lower your D/R (or AFR) on the radio for the cyclic channels.
3. You can configure ??? on your CGY750 ???

Suppose you want to increase the cyclic agility. What are the options?

1. You can select a higher flight mode
2. You can increase your D/R (or AFR) on the radio for the cyclic channel as long as your cyclic pitch range can keep up. The CGY750 needs room to correct movements. If for some reason it doesn't, you have to increase the AIL.Rate and ELE.Rate on your CGY750 as well.
3. You can configure ??? on your CGY750 ???

What do you think?

What I find only a little bit confusing is that the manual says 8 degrees of cyclic is a good place to start with. Ok, but what next. The tail is simple, get the max out of your pitch slider and lower or increase your D/R (or AFR) on your radio to increase or decrease the piroette rate.

What i have observed, When setting up your cyclic / AFR, it suggests to start with 8 degrees, with the assumption that the FBL head you are using with Endpoints set to 100% allows for a minimum of that. Granted each model is different and some will allow for 15 degrees of cyclic without swash binding and others will allow for 10. In the beastx manual under setting swash limit it mentions that in most 3D helis , 10 to 12 degrees of throw should be possible and that they always suggest setting the max amount of throw that can be had without binding, but the setup also has the user set where 6 degrees is much like the vbar does in order to correlate to the unit where it exists.

Always try to achieve the maximum possible cyclic throw. The higher the swashplate deflection is set the greater it will be in flight. This will achieve the maximum possible rotation rate of the helicopter without sacrificing the gyro control loop.

The 750 has the user start out with 8 degrees which i agree seems too open ended. That is why i have been trying to find "what is ideal cyclic pitch" . From what i'm gathering the CGY750 is meant to replicate the setup of a flybar heli but can be made to fly however. To answer the question about what to do if you want to increase / decrease cyclic agility.
From what i have tried and observed much depends upon what flight mode you are in. If you are 8 degrees and are finding that you ail is too fast but everything else seems ok the rate.Ang should be lowered. Since this number is a % and the number shown in the chart is given as Rate.Base as Xdegrees per second which is a unit of angular speed then decreasing the Rate.Ang from 100% to 70% or 50% may help. This is what i was getting at before. Each mode seems to have the rate.ang pre-set to 100% unless it is changed by the user. So if all else feels good expo etc but you want to slow down how fast it is flippiing or Rolling this seems like the best move.... If you want more agility and speed then increasing the cyclic throw from 8 to 10 might be tried. Now all assumptions at this point are that your TX endpoints are 100%

What i have seemed to accomplish for my helis is a good balance of cyclic throw and speed for my liking but it was not possible without expert tweaking. The problem is what to tweak and when is discouraging from lack of documentation.

As far as I see it the flight modes and size only will get you in a general area of where most want to be hence you will have to adjust accordingly. My honest thought is that the Ang.Base for each flight mode is set slightly higher than what most people are comfortable with hence many people are starting with values of 8 degrees and feel no need to increase them when in fact 10degrees at 70% rate.ang might give the user the same overall roll speed but now with more cyclic throw. This is even more likely with 450/550 size where the Ang.Base is much higher.

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by joe1l

holy crap my first sticky!!! man its true people will take advice from just about anyone, even me

You're welcome - great thread - we can all learn a lot from it !!!

[Mike2112]

Yeah, I am trying to read and absorb before I try my weak hand at FBL for the 1st time. My 750 has been sitting quietly in its box for too long. This has already become a wild thread...very glad it was started! Many nods of the gracious head bow!

Now I'm going to read it again. Hope I can contribute soon!

[FredRX]

Originally Posted by Steve Evans

As the gyro reports the max angular speed on both AIL and ELE it should be quite straightforward to set the cyclic to the desired amount (7-9 deg) and then wind up the ANG.Rate until it has no more effect on the reported max angular speed, and then back it off a little.Steve

Very nice idea! I'll go for my next setting session with this; thanks

[HeliBenj]

Originally Posted by joe1l

holy crap my first sticky!!! man its true people will take advice from just about anyone, even me

We need a CGY750 MrMel Thanks for your time trying to shed some light on expert settings.
I too feel the unit has a lot of settings to get it flying good but we are lacking a good explanation as to how to put it all together.
I'm surprised no futaba pilot or futaba rep has come with a better tutorial.

I'm fighting a bounce back on elevator after sharp command is released. I have not put a lot of time in it yet as I'm waiting for a new engine for my Srimok and I have been flying the crap out of my Vbar 600 in the meantime.

I have been playing with the stop delay parameter on elevator to no avail...

I will also try to make my cyclic faster with ang rate as increasing AFR in the unit seemed to have little effect.

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by HeliBenj

We need a CGY750 MrMel Thanks for your time trying to shed some light on expert settings.
I too feel the unit has a lot of settings to get it flying good but we are lacking a good explanation as to how to put it all together.
I'm surprised no futaba pilot or futaba rep has come with a better tutorial.

I'm fighting a bounce back on elevator after sharp command is released. I have not put a lot of time in it yet as I'm waiting for a new engine for my Srimok and I have been flying the crap out of my Vbar 600 in the meantime.

I have been playing with the stop delay parameter on elevator to no avail...

I will also try to make my cyclic faster with ang rate as increasing AFR in the unit seemed to have little effect.

Sometimes the difference between a good product and a bad product is documentation and how well the end user knows how to use the product. You can have all the technology in place but if the user acceptance is poor due to people not understanding what does what, the end result will be average at best. The BeastX gives a perfect example of well written documentation. Most people can read the manual and feel comfortable adjusting the model because it explains the effects of each item. Instead Futaba expects people to understand things like

The degree per second (symbolized deg/s or deg · s-1) is a unit of angular (rotational) speed. This quantity can be defined in either of two senses: average or instantaneous.

Average angular speed is obtained by measuring the angle in degrees through which an object rotates in a certain number of seconds, and then dividing the total angle by the time. If uavg represents the average angular speed of an object (in degrees per second) during a time interval t (in seconds), and the angle through which the object rotates in that time is equal to q (in degrees), then: uavg = q / t

I hope alot more people start playing and adjusting and reporting back instead of just leaving it be. Especially those with prior FBL experience as they are usually predisposed to a certain feel, accuracy etc and learning how to achieve that on the 750 would be key.

HeliBenj i have a suggestion for you to try but only if after first increasing your Rate.Ang to and your AFR does not work. I would suggest changing your model size down a size so if your 750, go to 600/700 etc using the same flight mode. Once you have it set i would then go into the expert settings and be sure to copy over all settings from the original size/mode you were using. This should allow for a much faster cyclic without changing much else.

[HeliBenj]

Thanks, I will try that.
Any idea on the bounce back?

[joe1l]

Originally Posted by HeliBenj

Thanks, I will try that.
Any idea on the bounce back?

bounce back sounds gain related but i'd first get your cyclic feeling right...because the modes might have different affects on your heli. Also the differential gain may need to go up or down if lowering your gain does not work. I know for ail gain if i jab the stick left or right and the gain is too high it will do the same. If backing off the ele gain does not help we will have to try something else.

[HeliBenj]

Great, will do

[FredRX]

Originally Posted by joe1l

Also the differential gain may need to go up or down if lowering your gain does not work.

What's the differential gain ?

[Mercuriell]

I had my Srimok nitro set up for 710-800 size and even with mode 5 it felt very docile, bumping it down o 600 gave it a much more agile feel, putting the elevator/aileron rate up to 115% has helped too, I think we should start a sticky with our model, settings and impression, i'll read mine off tomorrow!

[joe1l]

To anyone who has converted their heli over from a vbar FBL. Be sure you take advantage of servo resolution. The vbar takes advantage throw in contrast. The CGY750 works much better and will allow you to run higher cyclic gains and a higher AVCS dampening rate.

Basically the higher your AVCS dampening rate the more stable your heli will feel. Even just increasing it from 98% to 99% makes a big difference. The problem though with AVCS damp is the affects your control feel slightly but what i've just found out is that by increasing my resolution a bit, I was able to increase the AVCS damp without it negatively affecting my feel. Infact the control feel now feels the same it did prior to increasing the with the damp set at 98% but now the heli is even more stable. You can really feel the difference when it starts to get windy.

[Steve Evans]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

I had my Srimok nitro set up for 710-800 size and even with mode 5 it felt very docile, bumping it down o 600 gave it a much more agile feel, putting the elevator/aileron rate up to 115% has helped too, I think we should start a sticky with our model, settings and impression, i'll read mine off tomorrow!

See HERE. Unfortunately this thread was about the heli rather than CGY750 settings, although hopefully my post HERE is a good example to follow.

Steve