A biased but HONEST report on the Logo 700 Xxtreme

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by DominicD

Since I am already involved in this thread I thought I would ask a question I've had for awhile. With the release of the Logomobo 800 and 700 we have seen what appears to be a radical departure from the traditional Mikado design. Past logo designs had a very light blade loading due to a very light machine. The 700 and 800 are the exact opposite with a design towards rigidity and robustness, with perhaps a heavier blade loading (I don't want to start an argument).

My question is has Mikado designer/s changed their approach to heli design ? Is this the road we can expect future Mikado products to drift towards or is the design change only due to the size and class they are in ?

I have to admit that I see the 600SX as an evolution in light weight flying excellence and the 700 and 800 as Mikado jumping the shark.

I think what I have seen happening in this market is like the MegaPixel race with cameras. A camera with crappy low light capability would sell better because it had more MegaPixles than a camera with less resolution but that took much cleaner images.

What I see is a lot of talk about headspeed. How fast can you spin it has become a metric without taking the whole equation into consideration.

The other thing is just sheer size, and a LOT of really big motors have been put into production recently along with a lot of really big ESC's.

Recently I watched a fellow TDR owner flying very nicely at 1100 rpm, tic tocs, beautiful funnels and a very precise relaxed flying that was fun to watch. A little before that I had a sponsored pilot fly my TDR at 1882rpm and he thought the head speed was closer to 2200-2300 rpm.

Not all headspeeds are equal on different helis.

The LOGO 700 and 800 are a vehicles to allow people to use really large motors and 14S batteries. They were designed to handle this need people have for really BIG and Powerful helis.

I think this is a COMPLETE departure for Mikado, however it may pay off monetarily because people want this stuff bad!

Please keep in mind that I never said the L700 didn't fly well, just that Mikado it taking a very different way to achieve a result. I would expect the cyclic response to be responsive because the blades are basically clamped in a vice with very stiff bushings.

BTW quick trivia question: Which other vendor recently released an extremely rigid head design that required really stiff dampers and created greatly improved cyclic response?

[NTM]

If you're speaking of the goblin, it's not comparable at all.
The goblin has a very non-linear feel, and is quite the opposite of what Shawn is describing the logo 700 to be. The old flybar smackers love the goblin for this, I hated the feel of it and have changed to their new head design, hoping for a more predictable feel.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by NTM

If you're speaking of the goblin, it's not comparable at all.
The goblin has a very non-linear feel, and is quite the opposite of what Shawn is describing the logo 700 to be. The old flybar smackers love the goblin for this, I hated the feel of it and have changed to their new head design, hoping for a more predictable feel.

Actually I was referring to Align and I'm no fan of the DFC head design but everyone immediately commented on how much the cyclic response improved.

My point is that putting the blades in vice grips with stiff dampers should provide faster cyclic response. Mikado had to do a lot of other stuff right for it to feel linear.

Personally I think the finesse work on the L600SX is more interesting.

However as I mentioned there is a lot of demand for size and power even though the batteries are surely crying over the load required these days people are diving in so this may be a great business decision.

[OICU812]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

On a lighter note...and not to hijack the thread.....

Many moons ago, when I flew pattern, there was a pattern plank called the "EU-1A"

And it immediately gained the moniker of the "U812".....

So when a pilot showed up at the contest with a "U812", he was told...."OICU812"

Did you ever fly pattern.....with a "U812".......?

Lol never me no. But cool story none less.

[Mathias]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

On a lighter note...and not to hijack the thread.....

Many moons ago, when I flew pattern, there was a pattern plank called the "EU-1A"

And it immediately gained the moniker of the "U812".....

So when a pilot showed up at the contest with a "U812", he was told...."OICU812"

Did you ever fly pattern.....with a "U812".......?

Oh, I See You Ate One, Too!

[mkovalcson]

He's just a Van Halen fan.

[OICU812]

Not so much but... That is how. A friend said you should join forums read up and learn more when first getting to the hobby. That album was on my desk and i thought well that's need and and an "I" in it viola "forum name" check...

Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

[galensk]

Hi,

@OICU: I read the whole thread, (thanks for the review) after having that many helis, you seem pretty impressed about the L700. To be honest, I was already hooked the first time I saw,them,flying at 3d masters last summer. For my next bird I'm somewhere between L700 and TDR. different birds but kinda hard for me to figure out which would fit best. I fly my 500 and 600se and like them both. i'm into 3d with basics like all inverted , starting hurricanes and funnels. But speeding with the 600se is also fun ! I cannot afford both TDR and L700 ... all additional advice Is highly appreciated for making my mind up
/kurt

[dahld]

One of the things I commented on when the Logo 700 first came out, and many said it was over-built and heavy, was that the drive trains were right off the 800, and when power systems and battery technology inevitably produce "700 class" power systems that are more and more powerful, the Logo 700 would be ready "as designed".

Well, newly released (as an example), is the Scorp 4530, designed for 14S "700 class" applications, and (quoted off Scorp's site), "...motors is wound with a single strand of 1.4mm wire for the highest possible efficiency. This motor is capable of running continuously with an input power of 5400 watts at 110 amps, and can handle peak input of 9600 watts and 200 amps for 2 seconds."

Just sayin'

(-: Dave

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by dahld

One of the things I commented on when the Logo 700 first came out, and many said it was over-built and heavy, was that the drive trains were right off the 800, and when power systems and battery technology inevitably produce "700 class" power systems that are more and more powerful, the Logo 700 would be ready "as designed".

Well, newly released (as an example), is the Scorp 4530, designed for 14S "700 class" applications, and (quoted off Scorp's site), "...motors is wound with a single strand of 1.4mm wire for the highest possible efficiency. This motor is capable of running continuously with an input power of 5400 watts at 110 amps, and can handle peak input of 9600 watts and 200 amps for 2 seconds."

Just sayin'

(-: Dave

Now we just need packs that can produce flights longer than 2:30 with that motor. :-)

Beefy heli - Check
Beefy ESC - Check
Stupidly insane motor -Check

Next generation high energy density packs -

Now that the "C" race is settling down a bit, lets hope the R&D dollars are working on higher energy densities. This will fuel the fire for us getting to the most ridiculous setups possible with 6m flight times.

[dahld]

Your quote, "Next generation high energy density packs - "

I really don't know, and I'm not "into" the battery industry in order to have a "valid" opinion, but here's an "invalid" opinion...

Probably before we see vastly better batteries, we might just see the Logo 700 (not just the frames, but many other parts that are currently metal), fully molded. When that happens ( I say "when", because I don't know FOR SURE it will happen, but I hear things), little fairies are whispering in my ear that the machine's weight will drop SIGNIFICANTLY (like one to two pounds). These estimates are based on computer models of course, as the molds and thus the parts don't currently exist. But...

That would allow three possibilities.
1) Larger capacity (heavier) "current technology" packs to be used, with no overall weight gain from the current model, in order to keep flight times up while using the new (as you said), "Stupidly insane (heavier) motors". This is the dog chasing its tail however.

2) Keep current proven power systems and batteries (costs less than new larger motors and batteries), and get more performance from the heli because it weighs significantly less. Now we're talking.

3) A hybrid, combination or blending of one and two above. A little more motor and battery (power), with a somewhat lighter RTF model, that produces markedly more overall performance with moderate flight times. Lots of possibilities

But THEN, when we finally get the new tech "fantasy" batteries, and combine them with a molded lighter set of mechanics (that still have the toughness of the current Logo 700's drive train mechanics), THEN we'll be at the next level.

I might still be alive by then

(-: Dave

[DominicD]

In a few years we will be have 100C packs with 10min flight times and they only cost $50 ... and we will still complain about something

[3Dmuse]

Originally Posted by DominicD

In a few years will be have 100C packs with 10min flight times and they only cost $50 ... and we will still complain about something

I'd be happy with "true" 35C 6S packs that give 10min flight times and cost $50. I've been burnt so many times by the C number game in this hobby, and not by the "cheap" brands...

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by dahld

Your quote, "Next generation high energy density packs - "

I really don't know, and I'm not "into" the battery industry in order to have a "valid" opinion, but here's an "invalid" opinion...

Probably before we see vastly better batteries, we might just see the Logo 700 (not just the frames, but many other parts that are currently metal), fully molded. When that happens ( I say "when", because I don't know FOR SURE it will happen, but I hear things), little fairies are whispering in my ear that the machine's weight will drop SIGNIFICANTLY (like one to two pounds). These estimates are based on computer models of course, as the molds and thus the parts don't currently exist. But...

That would allow three possibilities.
1) Larger capacity (heavier) "current technology" packs to be used, with no overall weight gain from the current model, in order to keep flight times up while using the new (as you said), "Stupidly insane (heavier) motors". This is the dog chasing its tail however.

2) Keep current proven power systems and batteries (costs less than new larger motors and batteries), and get more performance from the heli because it weighs significantly less. Now we're talking.

3) A hybrid, combination or blending of one and two above. A little more motor and battery (power), with a somewhat lighter RTF model, that produces markedly more overall performance with moderate flight times. Lots of possibilities

But THEN, when we finally get the new tech "fantasy" batteries, and combine them with a molded lighter set of mechanics (that still have the toughness of the current Logo 700's drive train mechanics), THEN we'll be at the next level.

I might still be alive by then

(-: Dave

Wow some incredibly exciting hints dropped in this post. A 10-11lb Logo 700?

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by DominicD

In a few years we will be have 100C packs with 10min flight times and they only cost $50 ... and we will still complain about something

I hope you are right, current battery technology really sucks, fundamentally, no matter the brand. Personally I think all these monster motors at 2k+ head speeds are utterly pointless besides competition flying.
Safer and more capable batteries are desperately needed in this hobby.
As for logo 700, beautiful heli

Michal

[VolodymyrK]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

current battery technology really sucks, fundamentally, no matter the brand.

Truly, people never get satisfied with what they have... Few decades ago flying on electricity was not even possible until Lithium batteries were invented. The batteries industry has made a huge progress since then and people still say they "really suck"...

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by VolodymyrK

Truly, people never get satisfied with what they have... Few decades ago flying on electricity was not even possible until Lithium batteries were invented. The batteries industry has made a huge progress since then and people still say they "really suck"...

Progress from unusable to bad is still a progress. Who cares about 'decades ago'? I brought this up because there is all this talk about future power systems, monster motors and what not, we have great escs, decent motors, helis like logo 700 which can handle all of this, but no batteries to drive all of this, unless you like sub 3 minute flight times and batteries dead after 50 cycles; or fly around tail in, so you can get decent flying time, but then you might as well get a heli with half power/half price system.

My bottom line is that all this power chasing is pointless (unless you are a competition pilot) because one vital component is missing, but lots of manufactures tend to design around power, that includes recent logo 700.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

Progress from unusable to bad is still a progress. Who cares about 'decades ago'? I brought this up because there is all this talk about future power systems, monster motors and what not, we have great escs, decent motors, helis like logo 700 which can handle all of this, but no batteries to drive all of this, unless you like sub 3 minute flight times and batteries dead after 50 cycles; or fly around tail in, so you can get decent flying time, but then you might as well get a heli with half power/half price system.

My bottom line is that all this power chasing is pointless (unless you are a competition pilot) because one vital component is missing, but lots of manufactures tend to design around power, that includes recent logo 700.

I know I can get 8 minute flights easily with a pair of 4400mah packs on my TDR which was designed for the power of a Pyro 700 and exactly what I installed.

I'm glad to hear hints that there may be plastic Logo 700 in the future. I think that bodes well.