Why Kontronik? What is so good about them? I'm not in the loop

[Bob O]

Originally Posted by Groucho_

There are others who can explain in more detail and more technically, why a Kontronik ESC does a better job than an FBL controller can in governing head-speed.

Dl7UAE comes to mind - If I recall correctly, he had written a very thorough post on the subject earlier this year.



Just use Google, and tell Mr. Google to only search in Helifreak. It works perfectly.

Here's the member referred to, but I couldn't find the post in my first hasty search. I might have more time to look it up later.

https://www.helifreak.com/member.php?u=48424

[jamin_00]

I know how to search its the post or thread being referred to that I cant find

[Groucho_]

Originally Posted by jamin_00

I know how to search its the post or thread being referred to that I cant find

And I still cannot find it myself either... I do know I didn't imagine it though...

[SkyRaptor]

Originally Posted by Groucho_

why a Kontronik ESC does a better job than an FBL controller can in governing head-speed.

Long story short:

An ESC can track the motor speed 3 times per electrical cycle. For a 8 poles motor, that means 12 "measures" per motor turn. In a 700 heli at 2000rpm and 10:1 gear, that means 4000 measures per second!!! When you apply more torque in the rotor, the ESC takes just 0.25 ms (0.00025s) to "see" and react properly - this means the ESC will see the change in the next 3º of rotor movement and can react on the 6º.

Now let's see from the FBL side..

The FBL receives the collective command and apply to cyclic servos. In the same time, it will send a new throttle change to ESC. Some people think the FBL will delay the command to servos waiting the ESC reaction.. no, it will not do it.. the commands are sent at the same time.
But the throttle bus runs at 50hz, so new command takes 20ms to be seen by the ESC.

Using the example above, the FBL command to ESC is 80 times slower than the ESC itself reaction - or 240º of rotor movement.

So such delay kills the advantage of FBL knowledge about collective change; it is pretty fast for the ESC sensing the RPM drop and reacting.

Of course the whole thing is a "little" more complicated but this is a good ballpark figure.

Best Regards.

Alex.

[dl7uae]

... than an FBL controller can in governing head-speed

Alex's argumentation..

Sorry, guys, that Vbar super gov thing is a legend.

Why?
Because it really is not about hell-bent on the speed to keep it stable.
Surprised?

What happens when you increase the speed too fast?
Right. Torque by the friction in the gearbox. Impact on the vertical axis and, in particular at FBL systems, also to the other axes.

Therefore, the control algorithm of the JIVE is asymmetric: Slowly increase the PWM at a speed drop, rapid retraction of the PWM for speed increase.

It is not important to keep super stable speed. There are other requirements for the speed control in a helicopter.

The Vbar gov can not exploit his advantage by feedforward without causing negative effects on a helicopter.
And he does not.

Think about.

[Justin Stuart]

The internal governor of the Kontronik ESC is much more convenient for me to use since I don't need an additional sensor, and it works perfectly well for me. I like simple.

[alexf1852]

Originally Posted by Justin Stuart

The internal governor of the Kontronik ESC is much more convenient for me to use since I don't need an additional sensor, and it works perfectly well for me. I like simple.

+1

[Stolla]

Originally Posted by dl7uae

Sorry, guys, that Vbar super gov thing is a legend.

Why?
Because it really is not about hell-bent on the speed to keep it stable.
Surprised?

What happens when you increase the speed too fast?
Right. Torque by the friction in the gearbox. Impact on the vertical axis and, in particular at FBL systems, also to the other axes.

Therefore, the control algorithm of the JIVE is asymmetric: Slowly increase the PWM at a speed drop, rapid retraction of the PWM for speed increase.

It is not important to keep super stable speed. There are other requirements for the speed control in a helicopter
The Vbar gov can not exploit his advantage by feedforward without causing negative effects on a helicopter.
And he does not.

Think about.

Ahhh Tom, but you forget one thing, arguably the greatest function of all and my favourite the
PLACEBO EFFECT, knowing about it and being a true believer in "dont believe it when you hear it and believe only half when you see it" without knowing the mechanics at work intimately ive said all along testing both systems fless gov is not blitzkrieg and lightning!. For the same effect just use a nice vcurve with some overspeeding and voila!, did we go full circle again? But unfortunately placebo makes you blind and deaf so although curable in the long run it is very difficult process, One of the first and foremost symptoms is that everything else turned to crap the moment whatever new technology spiced up by hype and thunder sees the light, remember how the faithful raptor turned into rubbish when trex saw the light, then woohaa, trex turned to rubbish when others entered the arena....now watch my sig duckling between the swan's? No just full circle.....again! I may get into trouble here but its all in the name of identifying the illness, if you want to see it at work there are some serious cases over at SAB forum.
Happy holidays!

[Justin Stuart]

There is some technology that made the old tech turn to crap overnight. I think 2.4GHz transmitters is a good example. But there is other technology which serves more to be a crutch than anything else. Take the V-bar governor for example. If you have a poor quality HobbyKing speed controller with an unreliable governor, then integrating the V-bar governor is a great way to turn get the most out of a cheap ESC. But if you have a good ESC with a good governor (such as a Jive or Kosmik), then using the Vbar governor adds a layer of complexity which, in my opinion, is not really necessary. Maybe there are some maneuvers (very fast side tic-toc for example) where you can eliminate a slight tail wag through the use of the feed-forward cyclic prediction of the V-bar governor, but this has not been a real problem for my particular flying style. I can deal with a slight tail wag if I can eliminate the need for an additional phase sensor.

[ModelGuard]

Originally Posted by SkyRaptor

Long story short:

An ESC can track the motor speed 3 times per electrical cycle. For a 8 poles motor, that means 12 "measures" per motor turn. In a 700 heli at 2000rpm and 10:1 gear, that means 4000 measures per second!!! When you apply more torque in the rotor, the ESC takes just 0.25 ms (0.00025s) to "see" and react properly - this means the ESC will see the change in the next 3º of rotor movement and can react on the 6º.

Now let's see from the FBL side..

The FBL receives the collective command and apply to cyclic servos. In the same time, it will send a new throttle change to ESC. Some people think the FBL will delay the command to servos waiting the ESC reaction.. no, it will not do it.. the commands are sent at the same time.
But the throttle bus runs at 50hz, so new command takes 20ms to be seen by the ESC.

Using the example above, the FBL command to ESC is 80 times slower than the ESC itself reaction - or 240º of rotor movement.

So such delay kills the advantage of FBL knowledge about collective change; it is pretty fast for the ESC sensing the RPM drop and reacting.

Of course the whole thing is a "little" more complicated but this is a good ballpark figure.

Best Regards.

Alex.

Your correct in your calculations, but what you are forgetting is that a good Fbl gov like the Skookums line, will have control of the collective as well as throttle.
Take the scenario where a pilot asks for such an increase in collective that the motor starts to bog. The Esc based gov will instantly increase throttle to max, but the motor will bog because of the collective demands. The fbl based gov on the other hand, will increase the throttle to max also maybe slightly more delayed, and will decrease collective to the point where the motor is about to bog and then increase collective back up as the motor speeds stabilises.
The effect of this is because the motor is not allowed to bog a climb out with a fbl gov will infact be faster.
I have helis fitted with jives and helis fitted with fbl govs, I have experimented with this and once the flight batteries are past their peak performance during a flight the difference in a full punchout is quite noticeably better in a fbl system.
I dont use Vbars so I cannot vouch for their system.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by ModelGuard

Your correct in your calculations, but what you are forgetting is that a good Fbl gov like the Skookums line, will have control of the collective as well as throttle.
Take the scenario where a pilot asks for such an increase in collective that the motor starts to bog. The Esc based gov will instantly increase throttle to max, but the motor will bog because of the collective demands. The fbl based gov on the other hand, will increase the throttle to max also maybe slightly more delayed, and will decrease collective to the point where the motor is about to bog and then increase collective back up as the motor speeds stabilises.
The effect of this is because the motor is not allowed to bog a climb out with a fbl gov will infact be faster.
I have helis fitted with jives and helis fitted with fbl govs, I have experimented with this and once the flight batteries are past their peak performance during a flight the difference in a full punchout is quite noticeably better in a fbl system.
I dont use Vbars so I cannot vouch for their system.

decreasing the collective to wait on the motor... that is even more delay, and takes away control of the user from the machine. maybe in long hard collective punch out like you describe but for real world flying i don't see that as a benefit. I mean what do you notice that the FBL unit climbs faster? i would imagine if it limits your pitch you would infact climb slower. I would prefer a unit that runs the motor efficiently and then responds to power needs instantly and lets me keep the direct feel of the fbl unit.

[phranticness]

Thanks again for all the excellent replies. I'm sure this thread has frustrated some vet's who've seen it asked dozens of times before, but I'm grateful for all the fresh thoughts from experienced users and Kontronik newb's alike. (maybe not all fresh thoughts, but current none the less)

I've given the Jive a few flights now and am really really impressed with the governor. I'm really happy with the way headspeed is adjusted, it's simple and works well. I'm not that impressed with the setup of the ESC though. It's simple like Beastx is simple - if you know what all the beeps or blinky lights mean, it's simple. Unfortunately if you're not familiar with the chirps and jumper and need to count on a maual, the manual is pretty bad (I don't find Beastx as simple as most, Their manual is great though). Still - it's a fault I can overlook if the performance is superior, I can live with a bad manual (I have to point out that this is a used Jive with a used manual from a few years ago, they may have addressed this by now) . I'm sold on trying the Jive for a month or two. My initial impression - the governor is the best I've flown, I honestly didn't think I'd say that.

I shouldn't have struck out at the search function of this site without expressing gratitude as well - the site is free, the information is plentiful, and mentoring from veterans is priceless. I'm aware of Mr.Google's "site:" function, to be honest, I'm forgetful and lazy. It's a tool I need to condition myself to use more often.

[Stolla]

Sorry i dont get it, people complaining about the jive manual, its plain and simple, do exactly as it says and everything works exactly the way its described, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mystic3D]

Jumper in, power up, wait for 1 beep, raise th, power off
Jumper in, power up, wait for 4 beeps, raise th, power off

That's it!

[alexf1852]

Originally Posted by Mystic3D

Jumper in, power up, wait for 1 beep, raise th, power off
Jumper in, power up, wait for 4 beeps, raise th, power off

That's it!

Don't you have to pull the jumper out after a couple of seconds to get into programming mode?

[jhheli]

Originally Posted by alexf1852

Don't you have to pull the jumper out after a couple of seconds to get into programming mode?

Originally Posted by Mystic3D

Jumper in, power up, 3 acending tones, pull the jumper, then 3 decending tones, now your in programing, wait for 1 beep, raise th, power off

Jumper in, power up,3 acending tones, pull the jumper, then 3 decending tones, now your in programing wait for 4 beeps, raise th, power off

as Mystic pointed out, but it is literally that simple

[Groucho_]

Originally Posted by Stolla

Sorry i dont get it, people complaining about the jive manual, its plain and simple, do exactly as it says and everything works exactly the way its described, nothing more, nothing less.

I think the main issue with the manual is that it's more of a pamphlet. Ideally it would be more detailed...

There are some areas which are not as clear as they could be, this probably as a result of sub-par translation.

There is also an error in mode numbering in the Helijive manual, and I'd have expected Kontronik to have corrected that by now.

All things said though, the manual and online FAQ contain ample information that more than suffices for basic and correct setting up of any Jive ESC.

[Mystic3D]

Originally Posted by alexf1852

Don't you have to pull the jumper out after a couple of seconds to get into programming mode?

Opps my bad, yes jumper out after power on beeps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dr.Ben]

There is an ongoing effort in the background to revise future KT documentation to improve the Germenglish.
I think one of the reason that some percieve the set up more complicated is that is really hard for the uninitiated to accept that it really is as simple as it appears. A Jive takes no more time to program for a heli than that needed to count the beeps. I looked at the logger info on my Kosmik and was amazed at how much is going on in the background with timing and so forth. This is stuff that the user does NOT typically have to adjust or configure for successful use.

Ben Minor

[SkyRaptor]

The English manual is the worst part of a Kontronik. From the Jive manual, mode 4:

"By using a slider the Rx can be operated independently from the Tx. use the slider to program the JIVE to Heli-Mode. "

Today I still do not understand what the heck they meant there.

If a native English speaker has a hard time reading such manual, think about other people, like me, who has English as a second or a third language.

BTW, I really don't know why German RC companies are not able to write a good English.. Mikado's Vbar has a bad English as well, like YGE and others.. They should hire some native speaker to translate from German to English.

Best Regards.

Alex.