Castle/Generic ESC Auto Bail-Out Setup Guide for iKon/Brain

[Crowbar]

Ah, so I guess the rpm output from the ESC is some digital format that the Brain FBL just happens to know how to decode, makes sense and would also explain the erratic data on all telemetry channels.

Guess I'll have to use the Spektrum BL sensor after all, it sort of works but has tons of erroneous data on top of the correct signal which makes it totally unusable. Maybe a little ferrite ring around the end of the rpm sensor cable where it plugs into the telemetry unit?

[fletch3d]

Maybe run a hobbywing sensor off the motor wires to your telemetry unit and keep the rpm out from your castle to the ikon. Lots of additional wire..

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

[Arcturus97]

Great thread and I want to implement this myself to have the features that OTS wrote in the first post. I'm a Futaba user, currently a 14SG and previously had an 8FG (had a Spektrum DX7 before that). However, I soon realized that Throttle Hold seems to be sacred in Futaba, meaning a mix to throttle channel will not work when the the throttle hold "condition" is active. I thought about it last night and the light bulb went off, the solution is to take advantage of the "conditions" in the Futaba menus and use the Idleup3 condition with a very low straight line throttle curve and placed on the same switch as throttle hold. I'm not a Futaba expert but is here is how I did it. I've only tested this in the radio via the servo monitor screen, will do bench test soon to verify and report back.

This is done on a Futaba 14SG, will also work on a 8FG and should work in other Futaba TX

1. Setup up TX flight modes normally as conditions: normal, idle1, idle2, hold. I personally use SE like most (top left near 3 position switch). Like the OP I have three straight throttle curves for the governor, zero is only in hold. All pitch curves are linear.
2. Setup throttle hold condition as usual. I personally use the top right near 3 position switch SG. I have the middle and near positions as ON with the far position as OFF.
3. Activate condition Idleup3. I set it to switch SG, same as throttle hold. However, only the middle position is ON, the two ends are OFF.
4. Here is the important part. There is now a conflict between Throttle Hold and Idle 3. This is where the priority of the conditions come in. Put idle3 at the bottom of the screen (highest priority) and throttle hold one up (next highest priority). Now idleup3 (middle position of switch) will trump all other conditions (N,1,2,H). Hold will activate with switch in near position. There is a reason for this that will become clear soon. Alternatively you can make hold to be active only in the near position and Idle3 only active in the middle position, then priorty doesn't matter (between 3/H) except hold should always have a higher priority than N,1,2.
5. Set idleup3 pitch curve for what you would do an auto with, probably linear 0 to 100. Set idleup3 throttle curve to the appropriate low level straight line for the minimum rpm you needed. Let's say that is 5% for now (I haven't done this part of bench test yet).
6. OPTIONAL. To gain the feature the OP discussed of having idle on bailout active only when in Ikon flight mode 2 & 3 you use the LOGIC feature to activate IdleUp 3 (our 5% throttle curve or whatever value). I have my IKon flight modes set to switch SA (1,2,3 is top, middle, bottom) - use any switch you want. When setting up the Idle3 condition pick "Logic" instead of "single" switch. In my case I selected SA AND SG. Set SA to OFF, ON, ON and SG to OFF, ON, OFF. This will result in idle3 (idle on bailout) only activing when in either Ikon mode 2 OR 3 AND the Throttle Hold switch in the middle position. Select the appropriate switches and positions as you desire. If you want idle on bailot to apply to all ikon modes you don't need to do this step.
7. A few steps above I discussed having throttle hold on two of the three switch positions and idle3 on the same switch but middle position only. The "priority" of Futaba "conditions" resovle this conflict. As I wrote it, when in a flight mode that doesn't use idle on bailout (idle3), throttle hold works on both middle and near positions of the switch; when in a mode that uses idle on bailout then throttle hold is only on the near position with idle3 in the middle position. To make this work idle3 must have higher "priority" than hold.
8. Arm your ESC by going into hold (near position), select any flight mode and any ikon mode to take off from, switch out of hold (far position) and fly. The near position is always Hold, the far position is always run, and the middle position is either idle on bailout or hold depending on your logic.
9. Setup ESC and ikon as appropriate and discussed in post 1

There may be another way to do this - but this appears to work so far and I think its both flexible and powerful. Just be careful and test what you are doing. Make sure you don't eliminate throttle hold mistakenly. Please comment.

[regalmat]

I don't know what's more impressive, that you figured out a way to do this after having a 14SG for less than a week or that you took the time to document it so well--THANKS.

In this scenario, if the ESC was armed and you moved SG to the middle position, will the heli start spinning at the 5% level?

I ask because I'm old and its works better for me to have only on position on that switch that can turn anything on--don't ask me why I say that.

I'm sure you could get used to it (like having SL on an intermitent switch)

[Arcturus97]

Originally Posted by regalmat

I don't know what's more impressive, that you figured out a way to do this after having a 14SG for less than a week or that you took the time to document it so well--THANKS.

In this scenario, if the ESC was armed and you moved SG to the middle position, will the heli start spinning at the 5% level?

I ask because I'm old and its works better for me to have only on position on that switch that can turn anything on--don't ask me why I say that.

I'm sure you could get used to it (like having SL on an intermitent switch)

Yeah but I had the 8FG for the previous 18 months and the programming is really the same.

For your question, the answer is that it depends on if you did the optional step of tying idle on bailout / idleup 3 to an ikon flight mode. In my example if Ikon mode 1 is selected then idleup 3 will not activate and HOLD is active with SG in either front or middle position. If you are in other than Ikon mode 1 and SG goes to the middle then yes it would start a slow spoolup (not a bailout). SG to the front is always off.

Hope to you see at FARCC soon, Spring Heli Fling is first weekend in May.

[Dmaxison]

Great thread and I want to implement this myself to have the features that OTS wrote in the first post. I'm a Futaba user, currently a 14SG and previously had an 8FG (had a Spektrum DX7 before that). However, I soon realized that Throttle Hold seems to be sacred in Futaba, meaning a mix to throttle channel will not work when the the throttle hold "condition" is active. I thought about it last night and the light bulb went off, the solution is to take advantage of the "conditions" in the Futaba menus and use the Idleup3 condition with a very low straight line throttle curve and placed on the same switch as throttle hold. I'm not a Futaba expert but is here is how I did it. I've only tested this in the radio via the servo monitor screen, will do bench test soon to verify and report back.

I believe there are 2 methods that are easier to achieve what OTS is accomplishing on Spektrum. I applaud your detail and creativity! Your solution will work without a doubt. I prefer to have a deliberate separation of throttle hold and other modes by using the big 2 position toggle switch on the left. I believe these were possibly overlooked when you were scratching your head. Maybe they weren't and you have a perfectly good reason why you choose your method, a good one at that.

Let's get into it...

Now depending on whether you use governor or throttle curves (both achieve the same when using a governor on your heli) will determine what's best for you. This also means you are not controlling throttle with conditions like Normal, IU1, IU2. We are using a switch to select speeds.

I use iKon governor and Futaba's Governor mode instead of throttle curves.

Option 1.
Use elevated throttle hold with throttle cut.
Throttle cut is designed to be used in gas and nitro applications but essentially works like applying a program mix.
*Set Throttle Hold to a minimum percentage to keep esc armed and rotor head spinning (kind of like setting the idle point on a gasser or nitro) say 12%
*Activate "Throttle Cut" in Hold only!
*assign a switch to turn on Throttle cut. Assign this to either normally on or off depending on your preference. (I prefer throttle cut "on/on/off" to minimize chance of hot start)
*set to 0% throttle by pressing "RTN"

Throttle Cut has some safety built in like lock out of throttle till stick is returned to it's lowest position. Refer to the manual for details.
BE SURE TO CHECK YOUR THROTTLE CHANNEL OUTPUT IN THE LINKAGE>SERVO MENU. ALL OTHER PROGRAMMING SHOULD REMAIN THE SAME, LINEAR CURVES.

Option 2.
Use the "Governor" menu (this is what i use, a bit more work but easier to tune)
Select "Linkage menu", "Function", set #3 to GOV.
Throttle curve menu will disappear from model menu. Select Governor menu
Set trigger of GOV from "COND" to "SW" and assign "SF"
Governor #1 is the Throttle hold flat curve (switch SF)
Governor #2 is your head speed 1 (switch SG) RATE= 38%
Governor #3 is your head speed 2 (switch SG) RATE= 68%
Governor #4 is your head speed 3 (switch SG) RATE= 100%

Go back to GOV #1 and set the RATE=12% or so. Assign a switch for "Fine Tuning" with the 3 position switch set to middle position. Set percentage to around 17% then move to next menu which says "memory: RTN (1sec)". Press and hold "RTN". This will apply a negative offset to the governor output.
Switch position SA
"on/off/off" no throttle output (should say <off> next to "RATE")
"off/on/off" the amount set in "RATE" will be output on the throttle channel (i.e. 12%)
"off/off/on" the amount set in "RATE" plus "FINE TUNING" amount will be output (i.e.29%)

Be sure not to exceed 20% of the iKon/Brain's throttle channel value or it will go into "governor engaged" and ramp up to the value in speed 1. The RATE value and the FINE TUNING amounts will vary depending on your TX setup and equipment. Use what switches you prefer. Remember percentages in the radio will differ from what you see in the Flybarless setup screen.

Priority setup in the "Condition" menu should be simple as long as you use one switch for changes in idle up1 and idle up2. HOLD always takes priority (let's keep it that way)

BENCH TEST!!!

My setup...
My 8FG is setup using a program mix (SH>GEAR) only for Self Level. Flight modes are selected using "SE". Governor speeds are selected using "SG". Idle on Bailouts is "SA" off/off/on. Tail gain "SC" (HH, HH, Rate) Dual Rates on "SD"

iKon's use auto bailout in FM1 and FM2. Governor enabled in all modes. Self level in FM3.

I believe these are better options when setting up Futaba for idle-on auto rotations. These are very powerful radios when it comes to programming which leaves more than one way to skin your heli! Let me know what you think.

[Arcturus97]

Dmaxison thanks - your methods are great stuff and well done. They certainly are very powerful radios. I didn't think of the throttle cut or governor radio menu functions, nice. I suppose the only reason I came up with my method was from being stuck in the paradigm of flight modes controlling throttle curves and pitch curves on one switch, throttle hold on a second switch, and controller "banks" or modes on a 3rd switch. My goal was to stay within that box I trained myself on while mixing idle and hold on the same 3 pos switch. Honestly, it was just the first thing I came up with

I'm going to play around with both the governor menu in the TX and throttle cut and figure out which one I like best. I'm glad to be made aware of the alternatives.


My setup on the 14SG for Ikon is:
SE for N,IU1,IU2 conditions all have linear pitch curves and 3 different flat TH curves for gov
SG for Hold (and now the IU3 / idle while auto per the post above)
SA for Ikon modes 1,2,3
SH momentary switch trumps to iKon mode 3 (self level on) regardless of SA position via a mix
LD knob is for tail gain fine tune

My setup for SK-540 is similar, differences are
SA is for cyclic bank switching
SF is for tail bank switching
LD is for tail gain fine tuning and RD is for cyclic gain fine tuning (eventually I disable the knobs)
I use the gyro radio menu to control all of those

[Arcturus97]

Just following up on my post #65
I tested it at the field today, both autorotation bailout and idle on bailout working good.

[storrm]

deleted and created a separate thread for my question.

[wurmi]

i will use the cc edge 120HV with brain governor. i will put MULTIROTOR-Mode so that i have bailout and softstart made/using from brain. question:
i will set the gas-endpoints from the T8 so that i have 100% in brain software. How must i learn the gasway now in the cc??? the ecs must be in thr channel from brain but how will i tell the esc that see endpoints i made are 0 and 100%???
thx wurmi....

[karlm]

Great tread.
Is there a way to prevent the bank switching to "reset" the esc bailout when running Gov in the Brain ?
My problem is on a inverted auto i lost the orientation and hit the bank switch to activate self level. The heli self level quick, but now the head speed is very low.
I went out of throttle hold, put in some positive pitch and wated for the esc to bailout.
But now the Brain soft started the esc instead, and the heli falling down like a brick in to the mud from 5 meters.
Luckily the ground was soft from a lot of rain, so damage was minimum.

I cant find a way to program this in to the Brain

Best regards

Karl Sandvik

[Arcturus97]

@karlm you just pick which banks have auto bailout enabled in the brain/ikon software. This is in advanced view, gov & stab, each setup 1,2,3. "Governor use bailout". If all three banks have it enabled than switching banks won't turn it off. For me I have it enabled in banks 2 and 3, with SL also on 3.

[Thunder Fighter]

Originally Posted by karlm

Great tread.
Is there a way to prevent the bank switching to "reset" the esc bailout when running Gov in the Brain ?

I cant find a way to program this in to the Brain

Originally Posted by Arcturus97

@karlm you just pick which banks have auto bailout enabled in the brain/ikon software. This is in advanced view, gov & stab, each setup 1,2,3. "Governor use bailout". If all three banks have it enabled than switching banks won't turn it off. For me I have it enabled in banks 2 and 3, with SL also on 3.

Actually Karlm is right, switching banks will reset the bailout timer every time so you get a slow spool up every time you switch banks, and I don't think it can be programmed out. I would suggest as you are at the level of doing inverted autos you should just flip the heli back over manually (I know its a bit hard with an orientation loss but a jab of cyclic would get it over) rather than using SL then when you flip out of TH it will spool up fast. Otherwise just reverse the order and come out of TH first then activate SL.

//Dennis.

[karlm]

Thank you for the answer.

This was my first attempt to do a inverted auto, so i thought if I run into problem I will just hit self level and bail out.

Next time I will flip it manually, and then release the throttle hold.
And also learn to fly a little better before attempting something like this.

I`m now working on inverted figure 8, and last 9 flight i have to hit self level 7 times to get my self out of trouble. Its a great learning tool. Of course if I did not have self level, I wouldn't fly so aggressive.

Karl Morten

[felborn]

I had my first attempt at this last night, with no luck sadly. After reading more into this, the low RPM at idle up is a must for the bailout to work? So I MUST do the mixing for this to work, or else I get the ESC slowstart?

I figured I did not need to deal with the mixing and only wanted a typical bailout but that did not work at all for me sadly.

[vtown nick]

A little fun fact, the DX7 can be programmed just like the DX18 for this to work

[Patriot996]

I just have a noob question about this thread. Is this something that can be set up using a "Standard Receiver" or is it mandatory that you use either satellite receivers or s-bus systems. I ask because I am using an Airtronics SD10GS and I haven't seen an answer to this question in the forum. I have been searching and reading. Learning a lot about FBL. I have been out of helis for about 5 years and getting back in after only using flybarred helis. Bit of a learning curve.

[BrainDev]

Originally Posted by Patriot996

I just have a noob question about this thread. Is this something that can be set up using a "Standard Receiver" or is it mandatory that you use either satellite receivers or s-bus systems. I ask because I am using an Airtronics SD10GS and I haven't seen an answer to this question in the forum. I have been searching and reading. Learning a lot about FBL. I have been out of helis for about 5 years and getting back in after only using flybarred helis. Bit of a learning curve.

Please, read the annex instructions.
Thank