Kontronik 120+ HV and 700MX

[dl7uae]

Uh..., sorry, it absolutely does not have to do with voltage. But with current.... - by reducing chance for commutation failures.

KSA mainly reduces the range for the autotiming.This helps in case of low-inductive motors doing weak back EMF pulses.

Tom

[Helioop]

Thanks Tom! Nothing to be sorry about. That's hard info to come by (I even called Kontronik on the subject last summer), so thanks for sharing it.

[Mystic3D]

Originally Posted by dl7uae

Uh..., sorry, it absolutely does not have to do with voltage. But with current.... - by reducing chance for commutation failures.

KSA mainly reduces the range for the autotiming.This helps in case of low-inductive motors doing weak back EMF pulses.

Tom

That's the first good explanation I have heard re KSA Mode.
Not calling it mode 10 anymore as diff between Jive and HeliJive

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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StatiC]

Originally Posted by dl7uae

This helps in case of low-inductive motors doing weak back EMF pulses.

Can you convert that to layman's terms? Hopefully it isn't already in layman's terms Maybe caveman terms would be best. Me see square. Motor use square Ug... Not run good. Wheel better. Ug.

Does that mean motors like the M and MX that need KSA mode are flawed or just inefficient in some way?

[dl7uae]

Let me try..

We use sensorless brushless motors.

Brushless: There is no commutator (collector with brushes) doing the commutation mechanically coupled to the position of the rotor. So the BL ESC has to do the commutation by pole changing of the three motor leads, by electronic switches, three bridges of FETs, each bridge can switch a motor lead to (+) or (-) of the battery.

Sensorless: The motor has no sensor like a Hall element, optical or something like that. So how the ESC learns about the position of the rotor? By receiving (filtering, processing) the back EMF pulses (mutual induction) from the winding. Because the winding consists of three inductors (coils insofar).

Now an ESC has to work with advanced commutation - adaptively changed by an autotiming. Advanced commutation can be compared a bit to advanced ignition.

So far...

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The amplitude of the back EMF pulses depends on what?
Yes, a) on the current, b) on the inductance of the winding.

So, if we have now a motor with a high power winding, - less number of turns, - then the inductance will be low. What means: Low amplitude of the pulses the ESC needs to "ignite" at the right time (pole change). It's getting hard for the ESC to recognize the pulses and their position in time.

This is very dangerous! Especially also because we do not have only few turns of wire than also thick wire --> low resistance. The whole thing is getting prone to commutation failures. And a commutation failure is no less then with unsynchronized transmissions to insert a transition independently of the speed of the gears? Bang!

What can happen? There's a broad range.. From occasional "stumple" to high overcurrent, high surge (overvoltage - battery voltage + back EMF voltage, up to 2x battery volts) which may destroy the ESC (like with the "HeliJIVE issue" in connection w/ the Vbar gov (BEC and more killed by surge), it even can destroy the motor.

Autotiming is the way for best efficiency ESC+motor, autotiming changes the "ignition time" on the fly (adaptively). But with a motor winding of low inductance (+ low resistance) it can get difficult to read/recognize the back EMF pulses.

And that's the reason why KSA amongst other provisions reduces the timing range for the autotiming. Just to provide that the ESC will still be able to read these pulses in a (relatively) safe manner.

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Does that mean motors like the M and MX that need KSA mode are flawed or just inefficient in some way?

Oops, overseen it. No, not that, simply generating weak pulses. Okay, there may be also some more factors.., accuracy and uniformity of the positions of the magnets for example.

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Not so easy for a "Kraut" to popular express technical content.

[Mystic3D]

Originally Posted by xStatiCa

Can you convert that to layman's terms? Hopefully it isn't already in layman's terms Maybe caveman terms would be best. Me see square. Motor use square Ug... Not run good. Wheel better. Ug.

Does that mean motors like the M and MX that need KSA mode are flawed or just inefficient in some way?

Funny.
Motor speaks limited English so KSA Mode limits it's vocabulary so it understands


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- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dl7uae]

Can you convert that to layman's terms? Hopefully it isn't already in layman's terms. Maybe caveman terms would be best.

Um..., your silence tells me that I did not make it...

[AAKEE]

Hi !

Have a 700Ev2 with the 700MX and one Heli Jive coming in. Not sure how to set up the Heli Jive.
I know I will use auto bail out, perhaps not first flight but later.

Any hints of what setup/mode I start with ?

[JustinS]

Originally Posted by AAKEE

Hi !

Have a 700Ev2 with the 700MX and one Heli Jive coming in. Not sure how to set up the Heli Jive.
I know I will use auto bail out, perhaps not first flight but later.

Any hints of what setup/mode I start with ?

I have the same on the way, you need the prog disc to set the Auto feature.
Also has the probs with the Helijive been sorted, it was BEC/vbar related?

[AAKEE]

Originally Posted by JustinS

I have the same on the way, you need the prog disc to set the Auto feature.
Also has the probs with the Helijive been sorted, it was BEC/vbar related?

Yes, only VBar togheter with one of the modes i think.
I will be using BeastX(probably the ReactorX+2s also), so no probs for me...
Will get the progdisk.

[WBFAir]

Originally Posted by AAKEE

Hi !

Have a 700Ev2 with the 700MX and one Heli Jive coming in. Not sure how to set up the Heli Jive.
I know I will use auto bail out, perhaps not first flight but later.

Any hints of what setup/mode I start with ?

I'm pretty new to the product but have been doing a lot of research so I can offer what I know so far.

Basically just as in like MrMels Ver5 Jive video, using the jumper and upon the first main pack connection, follow his vid and do the process of setting up Mode 1 and its full throttle stick throw teaching.

Then after, just like in his vid, set it up to run in Mode 4 and then adjust your throttle ATV's like he shows in the vid.

This mode will give you a basic Gov that will hold what ever head speed you have, per your Tx throttle setting, per your packs power, per your gear setup. So you can then set a flat curve if you want.

This is the basic enough programming that will get you running.

I guess after that, if once you spool it up you find your head is rotating in the wrong direction, you will need to reverse that using Mode 7 via that same programming process.

As well if you have one of the motors listed as a possible problem, such as the 700Mx, you might need to activate the KSA mode of Mode 9. And in fact that has been told to me as I have the same that I should do that. Although I have yet to get the helo flying so I can't say from experience, but plan to do just that as it sounds like that is the way.

As you asked for how to just get started, that should get you flying until you can learn more about the other modes to decide if you want to use them.

Originally Posted by JustinS

I have the same on the way, you need the prog disc to set the Auto feature.

Technically from what I've been told, you don't actually need the disk for this directly so to speak, and it seems like the directions suggest this too, all though I have yet to talk to someone who knows all the parts of that for sure.

All in all though as while I know the ProgDisc is very expensive, I think it still might be worth it as what I mean by not directly so to speak is....I think if you want to adjust the spool up time, which relates to how the bailout works, you do need it for that. But I think if the default speed, which is the max I think, is fine for you, then you don't need the Prog Disk for anything else on the bailout part.

But I think it does make the whole setup of things easier, although mine is coming today so I reserve the right to go back on that.

Originally Posted by JustinS

Also has the probs with the Helijive been sorted, it was BEC/vbar related?

As far as I know this is still being worked on. So as it has been made known, no HeliJives out there right now should be used with Mode 8.

So keep that in mind for anyone using the V-Bar.

For the most on this though I would review this thread: https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=324590

[AAKEE]

WBFair ---> Thank you very much. A very informing post, just about what I needed. Have the manual, but didnt really know where to start.

[StatiC]

Originally Posted by dl7uae

Um..., your silence tells me that I did not make it...

Just the opposite. That is an amazing explenation of the issue. It was very informative and I feel smarter after reading it . I was hoping to wait and give you a much more worthy response but this will have to do.

I plan to search your posts looking for other nuggets of wisdom . Btw.. I just learned about jlog2. I want one with some sensors. I sure wish there was a US distributor. I am cautious about ordering from overseas.

Thanks again!

[dl7uae]

Makes me happy, thanks! Most times I do not manage it with those "popular explanations". I am quite "famous" for the opposite.

I sure wish there was a US distributor.

Yeah... There was a very brief communication with RH (Kyle) but it suddenly and surprisingly had ended as soon as it began. No clue, why.

[StatiC]

I sent an email off to them asking about it. I hope they start carrying it because I want to order one from the US.