The arrival of yet another 450. Could this Chase be the ultimate?

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by BaconRaygun

Cool, just couldn't tell from the photos.

I understand why you went two stage, 50% of the reason I slapped a two stage into my Warp... the other 50% being cross section, but that's all unrelated and doesn't belong in this thread.

Looking forward to seeing more progress, I'm liking this heli already.

That was some pretty innovative work you did on solving the Warps gearing, I followed your thread on that with great interest. But I had news of this Chase heading our way about then, and abandoned that project for this. I have actually had the cad rendering of it with the Kde motor and Sk720 black as my background pic for a while now. It's been pretty hard not to say anything as I have watched thread after thread pop up on the 450 subjects.

[BaconRaygun]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

That was some pretty innovative work you did on solving the Warps gearing, I followed your thread on that with great interest. But I had news of this Chase heading our way about then, and abandoned that project for this. I have actually had the cad rendering of it with the Kde motor and Sk720 black as my background pic for a while now. It's been pretty hard not to say anything as I have watched thread after thread pop up on the 450 subjects.

Well, I wouldn't call it 'solving' the warps gearing as I personally didn't see any issues with it to begin with. All Compass needs to do is make 14T and 15T pinion pulleys to open up the motor options a bit, but a few people are already doing that themselves for the same price as a stock pulley. You just gotta know where to buy them.

The gearing was a bonus, my biggest concern was slimming it down since the intent is specifically for top speed.

Thanks for the kind words though!

[Luvmyhelis]

To me it solved issues regarding opening up more choices than the narrow selection of motors that it could run with successfully. I did one if not the the very first lower pinion changes to the Warp and it started belt hopping around the pinion due to poor belt contact angles. Which is why I had to inside route the belt and add another set of tension rollers. After that, it was bullet proof.

But, in my mind. Why should a guy have to do this at all? Then again, I don't consider running 360 blades a stretch. I did that well over 5 years ago, as well as moving into 6s. Only to have guys ridicule me. True story! Now look at where the Rc 450 class is? 6s is the new standard, and the 360 blades are considered normal equipment.

This new Chase will allow guys to actually run up to 12s without doing anything to mod this heli. And 12s is def coming. It is not if, but when for sure. Scorpion is already producing 450 class motors for this. Glen has the very first prototype they made for this in his hands. The thing is awesome! No other heli out there in the 450 class is able to run this other than a true dual stage drive, as it produces so much torque. And just as 6s transformed the 450 class when it finally hit. So will the 12s option.

I will make this prediction right now. Within 2 to 3 more years. 12s will be solidly in place in the 450 class helis. Just as 6s is now. But not a single other manufacturer of the 450 class will be able to use it at this point. All it is going to take, is one pro pilot flying this Chase on 12s, and the world will take notice.

[TucsonFlyer]

I think that for 12S to really take off in a 450 size some lipo manufacturer is going to have to start building 12S packs pre-wired in series and with a proper balancing system at near the same price point as 6S packs. Ditto for 12S ESC's. 3S to 6S didn't take anything new really, 12S will.

Part of the point of a 450 is lower cost of entry, repair and lower complexity. If you can preserve those virtues then you can pack whatever monster motor and battery pack configuration into the frames that you can fit. Currently the added complexity of a 12S setup in wiring and charging might be a bit much for the 450 market.

Simplicity => Sales

Personally I really want a stupidly over powered 450

[LifeCycle]

They need to put those carbon skids on the Agile 7.2.

[sarpilot]

Nice pics Luv.....

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

[Luigi_tuga]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

To me it solved issues regarding opening up more choices than the narrow selection of motors that it could run with successfully. I did one if not the the very first lower pinion changes to the Warp and it started belt hopping around the pinion due to poor belt contact angles. Which is why I had to inside route the belt and add another set of tension rollers. After that, it was bullet proof.

But, in my mind. Why should a guy have to do this at all? Then again, I don't consider running 360 blades a stretch. I did that well over 5 years ago, as well as moving into 6s. Only to have guys ridicule me. True story! Now look at where the Rc 450 class is? 6s is the new standard, and the 360 blades are considered normal equipment.

This new Chase will allow guys to actually run up to 12s without doing anything to mod this heli. And 12s is def coming. It is not if, but when for sure. Scorpion is already producing 450 class motors for this. Glen has the very first prototype they made for this in his hands. The thing is awesome! No other heli out there in the 450 class is able to run this other than a true dual stage drive, as it produces so much torque. And just as 6s transformed the 450 class when it finally hit. So will the 12s option.

I will make this prediction right now. Within 2 to 3 more years. 12s will be solidly in place in the 450 class helis. Just as 6s is now. But not a single other manufacturer of the 450 class will be able to use it at this point. All it is going to take, is one pro pilot flying this Chase on 12s, and the world will take notice.

I really don't think that 12 s on 450's will become mainstream as soon as that.
For that to happen, it should be already mainstream in the 500/550 mm blades and on the 425 helis. There are a few 550s but not that much. Most of them are setup with 6s.

But i really hope to be wrong (this time) cause i would love to have a 60 gr motor outputing 1000+ easily, it got to be fun

[michael88997]

not sure if its too early or not but with the dual stage what sort of 3d flight time would it get?

[hamstar78]

Curious to hear this bad boy, bet it has a unique sound. The design is cool too

[prototype3a]

I looked this over the other day and I'm glad I found this thread tonight.

I'd like to see the belt driven tail and a non-DFC head. I know DFC is popular right now but I refuse to buy any heli that has one. I can only hope that KDS will listen to the engineer and tell the market analysts to go away.

[Cozz]

I do not understand the reasoning behind this drivetrain design? There is a three star approach to design from an engineering perspective; performance, maintenance and cost. Simplicity satisfies all three of these in ALL circumstances. Then, every exception to these factors is usually due to marketing reasons.

So, I don't understand the reasoning behind the additional complexity of this drivetrain? Why two belts when only one is required? (This same question applies to the Goblin heli) I understand the difference and reasoning behind gears and belts, and I believe neither is superior when well designed (maybe belts when considering damping, plus they're quiet). Performance is going to be compromised by increased mass (including the knock-on effect of stiffness requirements when you spread drive forces over a bigger area), moment of inertia and power loss, and obviously more parts requires higher cost and maintenance. How is this solution better than a Gaui X3, or Warp 360? (just to use one example of each, belt/gear to demonstrate minimal elements in a drivetrain)

from a marketing perspective... It looks rad!

[dr dremel]

Not sure but I counted 3 belts!? Coming from the Mini Protos I´d say it is more complex. Needlessly? guess it has to do with commonly available kV range of motors? At least that´s what´s limiting the Mini Protos, if you care for more choices.

[Luigi_tuga]

It's a very reliable way to transfer all the power from the latest motors, and maybe some more powerfulls to come.
It also enables to achieve nice ratio and keeping a thin and compact frame and canopy, allowing for faster flying.

[OnTheSnap]

..

[jadewarrior]

Originally Posted by Cozz

So, I don't understand the reasoning behind the additional complexity of this drivetrain? Why two belts when only one is required?

Because you don't want to run a less efficient wide ass Goblin type belt that can handle all the torque right at the motor pinion from the main gear all the way back to the tail output shaft when when a much smaller, thinner, lighter and more efficient belt works perfectly fine.

[Cozz]

Sorry, my error. I meant 3 belts, rather than 2 (I'm considering the protos as another solution, separate to my point). Similarly 3 ratio changes rather than 2; from motor-to-main and from motor-to-tail...

Aerodynamics reasoning doesn't seem plausible to me, aerodynamics in hobby heli's is a bit fickle. Canopies sell heli's

The larger belt to deal with larger motor forces makes some sense, although the same can be achieved with gear design, with larger contact area, etc. these could be easily interchangeable between 3/6/12/whatever-S set ups. The restriction being packaging. The goblin heli has a second ratio after the motor belt drive, above the plate, moving back to a gear drive to turn the main shaft. An additional "stage", as I've read someone describe it.

(I guess, all the answers I seek can only be found on the desktops within the companies design/marketing offices, and they're they will stay, haha)

[rallyant]

Originally Posted by Cozz

I do not understand the reasoning behind this drivetrain design? There is a three star approach to design from an engineering perspective; performance, maintenance and cost. Simplicity satisfies all three of these in ALL circumstances. Then, every exception to these factors is usually due to marketing reasons.

So, I don't understand the reasoning behind the additional complexity of this drivetrain? Why two belts when only one is required? (This same question applies to the Goblin heli) I understand the difference and reasoning behind gears and belts, and I believe neither is superior when well designed (maybe belts when considering damping, plus they're quiet). Performance is going to be compromised by increased mass (including the knock-on effect of stiffness requirements when you spread drive forces over a bigger area), moment of inertia and power loss, and obviously more parts requires higher cost and maintenance. How is this solution better than a Gaui X3, or Warp 360? (just to use one example of each, belt/gear to demonstrate minimal elements in a drivetrain)

from a marketing perspective... It looks rad!

In the not to distant past I had the same opinion on most of your points.
But after looking a little deeper there are a bunch of reasons i decided to design it this way. Without getting into the belt vs gear discussion (happy to go into in detail if wanted) a Belt drive train was a MUST for me, It was also a must to run more efficient and powerful high KV motors. and the only way to go all belt and be able to run a 2010kv motor for example, is 2 stage.
Ill post a little picture showing why.
Lets say you wanted to run a 2010kv motor, Ratios of 15:1 - 10:1 would cover most of the high kv motor and hs options... This would require a main pulley with around 222 teeth.
222/15 = 14.8
...
222/18 = 12.33
....
222/22 = 10.09 etc..
This is what it would look like.



Im sure its obvious why this would be a bad idea.. as you can see most of the perceived downsides "increased mass, stiffness requirements, moment of inertia etc etc are actually all the benefits of designing it this way. But you are correct it does add complexity and expense to the helicopter.

As counter intuitive as it seems, Dual stage does not add extra weight.the small pulleys more than makeup for the weight of the extra bits and actually reduce the weight of the helicopter!

I am not going to say my design is better than the examples you mention. I like both of those helicopters, But hopefully this explains how and why it is different to them.

[rallyant]

Originally Posted by prototype3a

I looked this over the other day and I'm glad I found this thread tonight.

I'd like to see the belt driven tail and a non-DFC head. I know DFC is popular right now but I refuse to buy any heli that has one. I can only hope that KDS will listen to the engineer and tell the market analysts to go away.

Both head options are going to be available. Not sure whats going to come with the kit, I think they are leaning away from DFC due to market demands. I am also mostly against DFC with dampened heads. BUT, this DFC design has NO damping and therefore has none of the issues that DFC can cause, it is performing "perfectly" for 3D flight but there was concern it would have issues at low head speeds and shake, But i spent today testing until the head speed was to low to even get off the ground, and its smooth as silk all the way! So ill be sticking with the no damping DFC on my own kit.
They are also making the belt driven tail option parts for testing as we speak.

Originally Posted by Soccerjay

Hey OP, any chance that you got the ok to post those vids? i'd be very interested....

I have the OK to post this video testing an early prototype.
[ame]http://youtu.be/60Cnmuh-i8c[/ame]

[Cozz]

haha, point taken! ...aerodynamics would DEFINITELY play a part with that gear ...or maybe with some aerofoil spokes you could make a 'lil additional lift?!

The compound geartrain now makes sense to me. I wasn't taking into account the large kV values or range of kV values. I guess that is the price of seeking more or more range of motor speed/torque.

And, it definitely makes sense that a small compound train can weigh equal/less than a large simple train.

[OnTheSnap]

Could you take a moment and explain why going with a completely rigid head works so well? A little baffled on that.

Also, the cyclics use mini not micro servos?