The arrival of yet another 450. Could this Chase be the ultimate?

[prototype3a]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Also, the cyclics use mini not micro servos?

I'm hoping these are the inbetween size. Smaller than the average mini but larger than a micro. IE, Hitec 5084, Hyperion DH-13. IMO, this size servo is what all 450s should use since they weigh and perform like MKS ds-95 but they are much more durable while being much more affordable.

[_Kyle_]

When's the release date!?

[rallyant]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

Could you take a moment and explain why going with a completely rigid head works so well? A little baffled on that.

Also, the cyclics use mini not micro servos?

In short, the totally rigid control system adds a feeling of precision and total connection to the heli.
Most rubbered heads allow the spindle to move its axis around on the vertical and one of the horizontal planes as well as flap in an infinite directions of axis within these planes. Any movement vertically causes changes to the pitch of the blades. And any change in the fore and aft axis puts it out of phase with the swash. In general this setup still works well, But when you fly a solid head you feel the difference.

But why are there not problems... I dont know for sure, and we may very well find problems with more testing...
Its not a new concept, I know of at least 1 rigid head RC helicopter in 1971 and a FBL rigid head helicopter in 1978, its performance was a huge step forward, so much so it almost managed aileron rolls LOL.
Even some full size helicopters run rigid heads like the EC135... they rely on blade flex and strong blades to take care of lead/lag and dissymmetry of lift etc... So why wouldn’t our RC helicopters with comparatively much stronger blades manage?

First off, I asked myself, why wouldn't it work? On modern Flybarless helicopters I wasn’t convinced that any of the reasons normally given were relevant.
Control over the initial acceleration of a cyclic input was of concern to me.
As a designer im more interested in the RnD side of things. I want to test out a lot of ideas i have and learn along the way. If im lucky some of the ideas will work I plan to get at least one of my ideas on the bigger version of this heli.

Dampers are effectively just springs, have a spring rate and resonant frequency.
I have not looked into it or done many calculations, but I wander if the shake from hard rubbers is due to the head speed matching the spring rate frequency of the rubbers(blade combo). This link shows the concept im talking about, Its about automotive suspension and shows the effect of dampner stiffness with the springs and resonant frequency , but the concept still applies.
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/f...waves/shm4.php
A potential advantage of a solid head is that it has no spring rate and therefore no resonant frequency (other than that of the spindle and head it self).

The blades also have a frequency of around 20hz for 360 blades, (unless my measurements were off ) I checked 2 tonight, one brand was around 19hz the other around 23hz, What this rate changes to at different head speeds when mounted on the heli I do not know. But im pretty sure they can be ruled out as a cause. Its just something I was keeping in mind for potential ground resonant issues with spool up or spool down shake after landing / take off.

The cyclic uses micro servos, not mini. Optional brackets to suit other servo sizes is a possibility. Minis are probably pushing it a little far tho.

[prototype3a]

IMHO, the continued use of micro servos in today's high performace 350mm helis is just foolish. Most have moved on to the use of 'micro' servos with oversized motors stuffed into them (IE mks ds95). As I said before, this is a horrible compromise since the gears, splines, bearings and even the horns on these servos are just too small to be durable. I feel, the inbetween sized servos are the answer.

I have a MA Furion 450 that I designed custom frames for to use Hitec 5084s. There are also aftermarket frames for the Align 450pro that use larger servos. Mon_T has a 450 with these frames. We've both found that not only does the heli fly better but it handles crashes much better.

https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=299867
http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/p...oducts_id=6465

One problem with all of this, is that there isn't really a standard for the dimensions of smaller servos. While most manufacturers make micro, mini and standard size servos, the micros and minis have small variations in size between brands.

[rallyant]

I just checked out the specs on the 5084s, Looks OK, I see no reason they cant be used. If you give me the dimension from the center of the output to the center of the mounting hole closest to it (all the other dimensions are available on their website) ill draw up some mounts and make sure they are an option part one way or another.... Hell you have me wanting to try some of these servos in one myself!.

[prototype3a]

On my next 450, I want to use Hyperion DH-13 GCB on cyclic. It has been my experience that the Hyperion DH series are really efficient and decent performing servos. They're also a hair slower than the 5084s and have more torque.

But, I do already have the set of 5084s. However, I just checked Servocity and it appears the 5084 has been discontinued.

Either way, both the DH13 and the 5084 measure to be about 10-11mm from spline center to the near mounting hole.

[Luigi_tuga]

The sucess the Warp has is in big part due to its rigid rotor.
Its feeling of conection and ability to keep tracking throught the moves and in the wind is simply awesome.

[Dejavu*Xion]

Originally Posted by _Kyle_

When's the release date!?

+1 . . . .Anybody know yet ? Or even what month ?

Rallyant : I think you have hit a Grandslam with your design. . Very easy to tell it's going to be a winner.

My Money sits and waits for you KDS Chase. . Love the design.

[Luvmyhelis]

It is now in the hands of the KDS test pilots. So soon!
[ame]http://youtu.be/60Cnmuh-i8c[/ame]

[R3L72]

Subscribing! Not only do I like this design so far but I really like how it's being explained Rallyant!

I appreciate you taking the time to post! I'm Definitely interested in this Heli

Originally Posted by rallyant

In short, the totally rigid control system adds a feeling of precision and total connection to the heli.
Most rubbered heads allow the spindle to move its axis around on the vertical and one of the horizontal planes as well as flap in an infinite directions of axis within these planes. Any movement vertically causes changes to the pitch of the blades. And any change in the fore and aft axis puts it out of phase with the swash. In general this setup still works well, But when you fly a solid head you feel the difference.

But why are there not problems... I dont know for sure, and we may very well find problems with more testing...
Its not a new concept, I know of at least 1 rigid head RC helicopter in 1971 and a FBL rigid head helicopter in 1978, its performance was a huge step forward, so much so it almost managed aileron rolls LOL.
Even some full size helicopters run rigid heads like the EC135... they rely on blade flex and strong blades to take care of lead/lag and dissymmetry of lift etc... So why wouldn’t our RC helicopters with comparatively much stronger blades manage?

First off, I asked myself, why wouldn't it work? On modern Flybarless helicopters I wasn’t convinced that any of the reasons normally given were relevant.
Control over the initial acceleration of a cyclic input was of concern to me.
As a designer im more interested in the RnD side of things. I want to test out a lot of ideas i have and learn along the way. If im lucky some of the ideas will work I plan to get at least one of my ideas on the bigger version of this heli.

Dampers are effectively just springs, have a spring rate and resonant frequency.
I have not looked into it or done many calculations, but I wander if the shake from hard rubbers is due to the head speed matching the spring rate frequency of the rubbers(blade combo). This link shows the concept im talking about, Its about automotive suspension and shows the effect of dampner stiffness with the springs and resonant frequency , but the concept still applies.
http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/f...waves/shm4.php
A potential advantage of a solid head is that it has no spring rate and therefore no resonant frequency (other than that of the spindle and head it self).

The blades also have a frequency of around 20hz for 360 blades, (unless my measurements were off ) I checked 2 tonight, one brand was around 19hz the other around 23hz, What this rate changes to at different head speeds when mounted on the heli I do not know. But im pretty sure they can be ruled out as a cause. Its just something I was keeping in mind for potential ground resonant issues with spool up or spool down shake after landing / take off.

The cyclic uses micro servos, not mini. Optional brackets to suit other servo sizes is a possibility. Minis are probably pushing it a little far tho.

[velocity90]

Im afraid this will be priced very high. Also I love the 3.6 canopy. Would be great if it has something similar as option.

I don't like the flag idea on the chase canopy.

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by velocity90

Im afraid this will be priced very high.

Rumors are it will hit at almost the same price as the Warp. Talk about hitting everything just right! If they do price it right with this info? This will be or shortly will be the top selling 450. I for one am going to do tons of custom work using this heli myself and will be posting up everywhere about it. Plus showing it at some larger heli meets.

My plans solidified yesterday, 12s for sure. A tri rotor head build and def a 473mm stretch. Both using my own motors and equipped with Sk720s so I can log vibes and verify everything is perfect. I am also testing out a new servo brand on my larger helis, and want to test their smaller version on the Chase. Maybe a raised tail.

[Soccerjay]

Oh god now i really want this to release quick a 12s triblade 450.....i'd kill to hear that blade fart at max collective or some rainbow dopplers with a governed headspeed way high, lets go 5000 .....might tear the heli to bits

If u need a beta tester send me a pm i would love to try 12s triblade

[Soccerjay]

Wait 473 kinda defeats the point of a 450, that more along the lines of a 500 stretch

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by Soccerjay

Wait 473 kinda defeats the point of a 450, that more along the lines of a 500 stretch

Lol, I am planning on stressing this heli out to its furthest abilities. A featherweight 500 that can handle those blades with 12s and not self destruct at roughly 1/3 the weight. Even the Tri setup I plan on using 390s or up to 420s.

[_Kyle_]

Beta testing would be SWEET! SoccerJ and I got you covered!

[Soccerjay]

Originally Posted by _Kyle_

Beta testing would be SWEET! SoccerJ and I got you covered!

Yup, we'll tag team and be your "team pilots"

[livedemon]

chase 350 new video all belt

KDS chase360 belt version flight video, (3 min 27 sec)

[Luigi_tuga]

Nice video, thanks for posting.
This could be a nice fleet partner for my warp, why not keep a full belt fleet from now on?
I really like to have the blades noise as the main instrument, that air cutting whisper from the blades when loading or unloading the rotor is too addicting

[livedemon]

Even I have a warp and thinking bout the same. . plus the specs on this bird are awesome ....I think that's around 3500rpm he is running jae hong ....it would be great to have this soon