Lockout/Brownout Problems - Static is a #1 issue

[DoctorAudio]

Originally Posted by Cruncher737

Just curious hearing all the static problems, but I wondered if it is a carbon fibre related issue. Do fliers with the glass fibre framed Trex 500 have the same problems?

Yes, I did!

Originally Posted by jones007

Hummm, I think generally "brown-out" refers to a temporary reduction in supply voltage, and "lock-out" refers to interference knocking out the Rf-link. In a brown-out the receiver does not get enough voltage to operate correctly, so generally it will go through a reboot and re-link when the voltage returns. In a lockout the receiver will generally go to a fail-safe or hold state depending on the brand and setup, and the length of the lockout. For lockouts less than a second I think most receivers just hold the servos at their last commanded location. Beyond that, most will move throttle to a pre-programmed spot - hopefully idle or off, and either hold the other channels or move them to pre-programmed spots.

The static problem that people (including myself) have had from the belt-drive on the original 500 was neither of these, it was ESD getting into the IC in the receiver and changing logic so that unexpected commands were sent out of the receiver, like throttling up when it wasn't commanded. That got pretty interesting in a hurry.

--Kevin

Kevin your right!
Sorry, if I confused anyone , even myself!

[jauguston]

Is the static/lockout still a issue with the newer CF/all CNC 500's? I am using a Aurora 9 2.4 system.

Jim

[jones007]

Not everyone had a problem with the belt, in fact many people argue that the belt drive tail is superior to the TT tail. I think Align made a modified tail-boom block that provided more belt clearance, but I don't know how well that worked. For me, the TT solved the static problem, and now the 500 is one of my favorite helis.

Note, the static problem wasn't really a lockout, at least not in the usual sense - actually it was worse. During a lockout (RF interference blocking reception at the Rx) the receiver has a strict, predictable set of rules to follow, in particular to move throttle to the bind position, usually idle. The two times I had static discharge issues the receiver light went out and the throttle came up - uncommanded! There was an awesome video on one of the forums showing this process multiple times on an old FP heli.

--Kevin

[Rwinger]

Has static ever affected Futaba 2.4Ghz systems? No one mentions what radios are getting static problems. I have never heard of a Futaba having brown-out.

I am just finishing a carbon / metal 500 and want to know if I need worry about static. I will be using Futaba 2.4 Ghx.

Thanks in advance.

[DoctorAudio]

Rwinger:
Futaba, Spektrum and Airtronics, have had brown-outs and lock-outs.

I have only heard of Airtronics having these issues. I have seen both Futaba and Spektrum Lock-outs in person!
I have seen Both Futaba and Spektrum brown-outs in person.
It happens about equal amount of times.
Lock-outs can be avoided, by doing grounding.
Brown-outs can also be avoided, by making sure your radio power system is supplying the right amount of voltage and current all the time!
I have seen a lock-out on a raptor not to long ago, when there was a CF boom on it. (Futaba)

So if you are worried about crashing something, do something about it now!
Just so you can be safe and fly with some confidence!

[georgi UK]

Originally Posted by fireup

Ok, this post is to discuss all possible solutions to the lockout and brownout problems that some people are having with their T500. I will list all possible causes to the problem and possible fixes to avoid these issues. The list will be updated on this first post as more data comes in. I'm not saying you need to do any or all these mods as a lot of people don't have any problems at all, but if you feel you may or do have problems, these are steps you can take to try and solve it.

Static build up and discharge from belt/boom

Solutions:
- Ground boom and pulley to frame (see bob's #3 post on how to do this)

- or Use torque tube instead of belt drive

- or spray/apply Graphite 33 or silicon oil to belt on a regular basis


Rx/electronic placements
It is recommended that at all high voltage stuff(ESC/BEC/Motor wire) are kept away form low voltage stuff (Rx/Gyro)
- Install ESC/BEC in front of the motor, either underneath the battery tray or on the side frame but in front of the motor.
- Place Rx in the back and keep antenna leads as far away from the CF frame as much as possible
- If your Rx have a satellite (AR6200 or AR7000), install the satellite so the antenna is pointing 90 degrees and on a different plane than the main Rx. Spacing the satellite away form the side frame with a layer of plastic plate may also help.

Internal BEC + ESC switching noise effects voltage
This can also be due to servo current too high for BEC to handle and voltage drop for a very short time and cause brownout
- Set BEC for 6V and use step-down for tail if needed
- Use External BEC

ESC/BEC and motor noise (EMI noise)
- Ground ESC neg. to motor mount/carbon frame (Add 1K Ohm resistor in series from ESC to frame to prevent short circuit)

CF frame is conductive and amplify or transfer above problem/s to Rx
CF frame can also cause more "shadowing" effects
- Change from CF frame to GF frame.


Let me know if I'm missing something, check back to this first page for updates.

=] is it conclusive that all issues are now fully resolved?

its obvious the belt has a different composite appearance to the normal non-shiny examples we are accustomed to...

I suffered from an un-commanded signal that applied full throttle to a nice hover and mixed in 12 degrees of neg pitch...=[

I have done the mods as far as my concerns allow... the metal tail needed its individual parts electrically cleaned to ensure a live connection from the tail shaft to the boom...

I also use the UK equivalent of "static guard" and have confidence global warming didn't take into account heli guys =]

georgi UK

[Rwinger]

No static issues whatsoever on my 500 belt drive. I am using Futaba 2.4Ghz. I have no electrical bonding....standard out of the box. I have the metal tail, carbon frames, aluminum boom and metal boom mount.

[Mon_t]

Been flying mine for nearly 2 years now on spektrum, more than 400-500 flights and no static problems with the 500. I have one of the original boom blocks and still using a plastic tail case.
All I've done is ground the boom, and spray the belt every so often when I remember (approx. once every 3 or so months).

[gale155]

I'm a noob, and I'll admit that when it comes to electricity, I don't know a volt from a watt. So, this might be a really stupid question, but here goes.

I'm a security officer in a huge data center, and every day I see the remnants of server builds and repairs. Included in the leftovers I see are bags of various sizes that protect static sensitive components - some tiny, some huge. Whatever material these are constructed of apparently is 100% effective in blocking static electricity, and keeps it from damaging some very-expensive pieces of equipment.

What I'm wondering is if this material (very thin plastic) could somehow be used on our helis to protect the components affected by ESD? My apologies if this has already been discussed in this thread.

[enforcer69]

Hi guys. I've finished building a new 500CF with the lowered battery tray. the fact that iam using KDE Direct's alu set with the anti-rotation, and Microheli's tail case along with almost all of Align's available metal parts, will reduce the static?
I'm thinking of installing G-Force's parts too.

[low.level.3d]

hi,

can a regulator such as reactor x2 prevent a brownout?

Just wondering whats more safe. using a regulator which for sure can handle 15A for cyclics and 5 amps for receiver and the rest. Or plug the lipo directly into the rx (maybe use a failsafe switch)?

Just not sure if my receiver will handle such an amount of current. There is no rating on it. (using Futaba 6108Sb S-Bus)

All my equipment can handle 2S except tail servo (bls251).


cheers,

cyril

[PeteS]

Guys,

Do you have to remove the belt from the heli in order to use the graphite spray?

Thanks!

[Globs]

Well I ordered a belt driven T500 ages ago, and have not had the time to build it yet, but am brushing up on the vital mods the get it going.

While I have not had a chance to test this yet it seems to me the belt-drive static issue is caused by the similarity of the belt to a Van-de-Graaf generator, which ends up scooping up electrons at one end and depositing them at the other, eventually leaving to a huge PD (potential difference - voltage) between the two ends.

Silicon spray/grease usually stops the electrons jumping which is why this works in many cases.

So, theory says we have to connect the tail unit/cog to the the drive cog, which can be done by making everything conduct (as this thread shows very well) or by simply putting in a thin wire from the (metal) tail assembly to the (metal) pulley drive block in the frame.

I'll hopefully build mine later in the year and give it a few lab tests to see how this approach pans out

[morebeer]

I just lost power and crashed my +CLONE+ 500 (Probably due mostly to parasitic drag i.e. crashed tail bearings) and saw a perfect opportunity to put together my ESP 500 kit. Sweet Holy (enter your chosen deity here), go TORQUE TUBE. this thing runs like a sewing machine made by Swiss watch makers compared to that crappy EXI-500. do yourself a favor and never run a belt again. Disclaimer: MA Furion 6, you're cool in my book.

[Rwinger]

EXI 500, belt drive tail, Futaba 2.4Ghz.......no problems at all! I have both belt and TT and there is no difference, except that the gears are FRAGILE.

Enjoy the TT

[7wt]

It's been a while since I have flown a heli and I am thinking about getting back into it with a 500. Is the static problem still an issue for the belted tails?

[flerpie]

Seems that putting on a metal boom block mount gets rid of static because
the tail boom/belt is not insulated anymore. All the static mitigation techniques
seem to center around a cheap plastic boom block. I prefer to stop the static
at the source problem - use a metal boom mount. I'm still gonna silicone
the belt though.

I have never seen a metal boom mount used with antistatic measures.
Maybe I just ain't seen it is all.

[mattco]

I have had this occur to me, but fortunately got the bird back in one piece, besides a bent flybar happens . Right. I have traced this down to my antenna being too close to the carbon fiber body of the heli. , glitched off main receiver antenna I guess. Since then I use silicone spray on the belt before every flight session and of course don't let any thing signal related touch the carbon.

[xpftp]

will i been tryin this for about 3 months now .. seems to work so far.. i went looking at real airplanes on the net for the lighting arresters.. a wire stuck inside of a glass tube hangin off the back of the wings or trailing edge..

mmmmmmmmm got me thinking .. took a piace of wire about 5 inchs long . striped one end about 1/2inch .. took the tail guide close to the supports and put the wire between the guide and tube .. tightin her up .. then zip tied with some slack .. to the suppot rod ..

other end hangs str8 down .. with 1/2 inch striped off end .. i have yet to have the big arc i had 2 times .. and no brown outs. simple easy and to me works like the dickins ..
my toughts the blades moving air over wire. mositure in the air . even if so little .. sort of act like a drain as the moisture in the air moves past th bare end of wire it takes the build up of staic with it ..
no idea if this is right but it works great .

sorry foucse out .. the cam isnt to good .

[juzera]

While l was making my trex 500 l noticed static charges coming from the tail boom housing while it was in my hand. l think this problem may be the compound of the plastic structure. Ended up putting in 500 pro tail housing, which seems to be made of a different plastic compound.