Does anyone do funnel 8s

[ArchmageAU]

Tempted to put this in my other thread, but this is a question to the experienced pilots out there, not a progress report.

Started practising, in the sim, upright and inverted funnel 8s today (inward/outwards, left/right). The switch point changes from tail-down to nose-down.

Questions is does anyone out there do these?
Any tips apart from keep practising?

I have seen others do nose-down or tail-down upright to inverted funnels, but no tail-down to nose-down (either upright or inverted).

I can do "rough" nose and tail down funnels both upright and inverted, just switching is really "kicking my but" at the moment.

Point of the practice is to drill these to make them consistent and "automatic" before IRL attempts.

I can do IRL upright and inverted, nose-first and tail-first, inwards and outwards 8's. Eventual aim is mobiuses and controlled piro-flips.

[kickbackkid]

There is a guy at our field that does beautiful funnel figure eights. He's the only one I know that flies them. Everybody else lays down the smack 3D. But he doesn't do them from tail down to tail up at the transition. He just goes from upright to inverted at the transition.

Before you try the maneuver you are talking about, I would practice piro circuits. Do them both upright and inverted and you see every funnel orientaion. Then it's a matter of morphing the transition smoothly which I have a very hard time with.

If you haven't had a chance, look at this website for a detailed explanation. Chad does an awesome job of flying these and making them super smooth! Look for the Morphing and Transitions video:

http://www.chadrg.com/flightschool/

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by kickbackkid

There is a guy at our field that does beautiful funnel figure eights. He's the only one I know that flies them. Everybody else lays down the smack 3D. But he doesn't do them from tail down to tail up at the transition. He just goes from upright to inverted at the transition.

Before you try the maneuver you are talking about, I would practice piro circuits. Do them both upright and inverted and you see every funnel orientaion. Then it's a matter of morphing the transition smoothly which I have a very hard time with.

If you haven't had a chance, look at this website for a detailed explanation. Chad does an awesome job of flying these and making them super smooth! Look for the Morphing and Transitions video:

http://www.chadrg.com/flightschool/

Have viewed the chadrg videos many times. The upright/invert funnel switch seems pretty common.

Was playing around with upright piro circles (they were fun, wonky, but fun). Upright reverse piro circles (piro against the circle direction) were not so good. I'm less than 6 months flying, so most things have enormous room for improvement.

When I get the funnel 8 transition it's smooth (like a nice 8 made of touching circles). When I get it wrong, its a prelude to virtual carnage.

When I start smacking I want to be able to flow nicely between the tricks, not just trick, stop, fly to next trick, trick, stop, fly to next trick, trick, etc... May even get into FAI flying.

[GravityJunkie]

I've been working on those with my 130X. When I can get the transition smooth, it looks decent. The problem for me has been getting nose down to tail down smooth. My tail to nose looks much better.

[RogerRabit]

I´ve flown them a few times.
They are not my favorites.
On a 700 there is the position where it is going sideways away from you and i have a "falling" feeling at that point and try intsinctively to steer the pirocircle to get it out.
So i allways have a negative gut feeling there and a path deviation where my brain locks up until i steer it right again.

I have no problem doing the pirocircles and 8s but this special one is still a little one to put more training in.

On the sim i train them too low so IRL they look totally different.

What helped me most is to visualize the two midpoints i want to place them around.


I especially like your approach towards FAI.

I did that F3C stuff long ago on competitions (not too successful)
I looks booring, but only to those who do not know the details.

Morphing is the next after funnel 8. I personally find morping easier.
It prepares you for the piroflip also.
A piroflip (1 piro/1 flip) is a stationary morphed figure 8.

[Steve Graham]

Are you saying that at the crossover mid point you morph from upright, CCW tail-down to upright,CW, nose-down.

Grab your micro for visualization. Lets assume that your upright, CCW nose up. Your looking at the left side as the model comes towards you approaching the morph. Lets also assume an "effective" bank angle of 45 degrees so the nose is angled 45 degrees high. To get from this point to an upright, CW nose down you can simply push elevator to pitch forwards 90 degrees. The nose is now 45 degrees low in the proper orientation to enter the opposing circle. Alternatively you could pull elevator and execute 270 degrees of a back flip placing the nose in the same spot. You could also add 360 degrees of rotation making the push version 450 degrees, 1 & 1/4 flips, or the back flip version 630 degrees, 1 & 3/4 flips. For this manuever the only control that really changes is the rudder changes direction from CCW to CW upright. One of the big challenges you face in morphing moves is collective management. For this one you must come out of positive as the models deck angle goes through zero and come back in as you re-establish your "bank" going the other way.

I hadn't really done these so I went to the sim and got them working so so but honestly don't find them very pretty. What I think would make them more visually interesting would be to add rolling and or pirouetting into the picture. You need to break the maneuver down into it's component parts. In addition to your initial requirement for fore/aft elevator any combination that adds a full piro, flip or roll will leave you where you want to be to continue the opposite side of the circuit.

This is where slowing down the simulator and or using the lockposition command can be powerful tools. In case you don't know how to use the real flight console: hit the tilda key ~ that is left of the number 1 on the keyboard. This opens up the command console. Type "lockposition" and hit enter. The heli will be fixed in position in the air in all axis and you can play without worrying about collective management. It will stay there until you type the command again. Alternatively you can type "bind L lockposition" and close the console. Now for the remainder of the session each time you hit the L key the model will toggle in and out of position hold.

You're correct that transitions make the difference between just a bunch of tricks and a pretty flight that flows especially if you fly to music. Your work on them will pay dividends. As you practice think in terms of laying rolls and flips as well as the traditional pirouettes over the top of all the basic lines, angles and radii that make up aerobatic flight.

[HeliSmith]

I practiced stuff like this learning to do piro funnels. Switching from hurricane to funnel to stamp orientation into my brain. I don't practice nose down funnels and I barely practice funnels now I am a smack 3d head

[Luigi_tuga]

It's one of the tricks i've been working on, i'm performing them in almost all orientations.
The transition part is only a bit tricky.
You will want to make the transition a bit before the two circuits meet. Then you just need to add a little of extra bit of pitch+a bit more of cyclic to force the heli to go in the other circuit where you have to keep the heli performing the other funnel.
Practice, practice, and some more.
I like smack but i also love funnel 8's and hurricane8's.
There's something about these horizontal stunts, where you cover a wide bit of field, with the heli position defying gravity and using centripetal forces at high speed too keep it airborne that fascinates me

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Luigi_tuga

...
The transition part is only a bit tricky.
You will want to make the transition a bit before the two circuits meet. Then you just need to add a little of extra bit of pitch+a bit more of cyclic to force the heli to go in the other circuit where you have to keep the heli performing the other funnel.
Practice, practice, and some more.

Thank you for the tips. (Thank you also to HeliSmith, Steve Graham, RogerRabit and GravityJunkie for the replies). Will keep working on these and progressing to other transitions.

Originally Posted by Luigi_tuga

I like smack but i also love funnel 8's and hurricane8's. There's something about these horizontal stunts, where you cover a wide bit of field, with the heli position defying gravity and using centripetal forces at high speed too keep it airborne that fascinates me

Me too. I love the speed and control aspects.

Even when in control, still don't want to bring them too close to me as mechanical failure could be catastrophic to more than just the model (even on a 130x, not just the 450+ sizes). A split second lapse of concentration or a thumb twitch at the wrong instant could have a similar result.

"Risk vs Reward". It's fine to take risks, just have a risk management plan so there are only sensible risks.

[AcidDrink]

I can do them. Make sure you have funnels in all orientation nailed, with your eyes closed.

Smooth transition is mostly about collective in the middle (mid stick) unless you want to move it away or closer during the transition. Lead with tail a little, it should be easier.

[clicky]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

Lead with tail a little, it should be easier.

Interesting! Never though of it. I do have, sometimes, tail leading in some points, but that wasn't ever by design...

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

I can do them. Make sure you have funnels in all orientation nailed, with your eyes closed.

Smooth transition is mostly about collective in the middle (mid stick) unless you want to move it away or closer during the transition. Lead with tail a little, it should be easier.

Thanks for the tip AcidDrink. Will try moving more before pulling/pushing the funnel with aileron after the bank change.

Hard to do any flying with eyes closed (considering we rely primarily on visual feedback).

Originally Posted by clicky

Interesting! Never though of it. I do have, sometimes, tail leading in some points, but that wasn't ever by design...

I'm still working on getting the tail right in the funnel. Sometimes it leads, sometimes it lags, often it's OK. Nose down tends to be better than tail down currently (both upright and inverted), but more practice should fix this.

Once, in the sim, I can do 5 of each of these without crashing or leaving the virtual field, will be time to try in real life. Each includes all 8 8s (upright/inverted, inward/outward, left/right lead).

My goal for the 450+ is to get all 16 8s (32 circles) in one flight. That's approximately one complete circle every 8s for the entire flight (tough, but do-able). Already mentally mapped all the transitions.

Would like to get an IRL controlled, repeatable piro-flip before November (that's my first year flying anniversary), but I'll take what I get. I'm having fun. Still have MPAA gold wings and mobiuses before that. I'll keep practising and see if I get "lucky".

[neverland]

you can also do (for example) ccw upright tail down to cw upright tail down fig 8's.

its a very slinky looking maneuver if you can get the cross over timing dead right. do it nice and slow, so its not obvious were its going till you see the whole thing completed. in spite of not going inverted, it actually looks very beautiful. for me it was 'i wonder if that would work' phoenix experiment. i just kept plugging away, till it 'flowed' .

[clicky]

I tried them today with my Mini Titan. Not as steep funnels really, but like two pie dishes. I can see how nicely then can be done: slow controlled CCW tail in pie dish on the left of me, morphed in CW nose in pie dish. Angle of heli didn't really go over 20º and they were good 5-7m in radius. But, when they are sped up it is going to look really nicely! I need to work in tail in to nose in transition as I don't go 'out' enough in first half of a circle (right part of the 8)...

Pity neverland didn't look that way when I was playing with them (fair enough - I did take my heli to side of the field...