Learning to fly - timeline?

[fizzer]

My breakthrough came in finding a field big enough - room to play will help your confidence. Also, get used to flying higher, with enough altitude you can recover from mistakes. I found progressing very slow unless you push yourself. Also, getting that first crash out of the way helps

Here's a vid after a couple weeks with my first CP (EXI 450). Prior to that I had a couple weeks of mSR indoor flying and maybe 30 hours of sim time. The video isn't anything spectacular, and you can see I make a few mistakes, but by keeping my alt up, there's plenty of room to recover.

[freewheel510]

This group is amazing. Everything I wanted to say reading the original post is up here, plus a bunch of stuff I didn't think of.

You can't learn this hobby without taking risks. What you can do ok with the sim and the CPX, try it with the 450. Risking breaking something is part of the hobby. This is true in life too; growth means risk.

Another part of the hobby, and this relates to life BIG time, is simply appreciating where you are. You aren't likely to become the next Alan Szabo; if that is unacceptable, find a different hobby. If it is acceptable, just enjoy what you can do, and recognize that progress will come at your pace.

Sort of a zen thing: Only by accepting where you are and being fully committed on the step you are on now, can you move to the next step.

[benjbrit123]

personally i would have to say like everyone says you take risks to improve. Im only 16 so i have an advantage with the fact im like a sponge at the moment for learning but i stared for the first to months being to scared to fly my 450 in forward flight. Eventually i just went for it and it was really easy just like on the sim. from there i moved on really quick. Now ive been flying around a year and can do quite a bit of 3d with my helis and now have two big .50 sized ones!

[oy2503]

Hey - you don't need to crash.

I do not agree with those who say :

You have to crash to learn.

I started with a 450 last year and I haven't crashed yet.

I am practicing my nose-in now and flying circuits, stall turns,
loops, rolls and flips. Okay I used to fly planks - that helps some.

I've started using my 500ESP and like it. And a 550 plus a 600N
are almost ready and waiting their turns.

Now go fly the darn thing (450) and stop wasting your time with
the small stuff. Darn heli crack. I got my fix yesterday evening just
before heavy rain and thunder - 2 packs of 450 and one of 500.

Cheers
Erik

[Old Man Wiggins]

Like was already said here, everyone is going to learn at a different pace so I doubt there's any "standard" curve that says, by month X you should be able to do X tricks or whatever.

Here's my learning track so far...

- Got a copy of RealFlight Basic in February of 2011 and practiced every day for at least 2 hours.

- Bought my first CP heli (Trex 500 ESP) about the first week of April. (I did have a couple of co-ax helis and an mSR for a few months before this.)

- Had my maiden flight in the warehouse where I work on April 22nd. Obviously, just hovering tail in and using homemade training gear.

- At the end of the 1st week, I was doing nose-in hovering and removed my training gear.

- 2nd week - More nose-in and left/right side-in hovering practice

- 3rd week - Small, slow FF circuits... and more hovering practice.

- 4th week - First loops/rolls, faster & bigger FF, stall turns w/pirouettes, nose-down funnels.

- 5th week - Inverted hovering - tail-in (Only in short durations as this scared the crap out of me.) lol

- 6th week - More loop, roll, and inverted hovering practice (nose-in, left/right side-in), stationary flips & rolls, even faster & bigger FF (I love speed!), upright hurricanes.

- 7th week - Inverted FF, barrel rolls, rainbows & some tic-tocs (well, the rough beginnings of tic-tocs anyway).

- 8th week - More comfortable with inverted FF and still having fun with loops, flips, rolls, funnels, etc. (I practiced tic-tocs a little more, but I think they're kinda boring, even to watch a pro pilot perform them. I don't really care if I learn them or not.)

No crashes thus far, but a couple of scary close calls, including one where I went inverted without being in idle-up mode. Another was when I got the heli cockeyed at the top of a loop and it got well above and behind me before I was able to get it straightened out. Not cool. Plus a few other miscellaneous "oh shit" moments thrown in for good measure.

And of course, in between all that, practice, practice, practice on the sim. Every day, without fail. My advice is to work on maneuvers or basic orientations in the sim until the stick movements become almost 100% instinctive. That's how I learned.

Most importantly, be true to your comfort level and your abilities. Don't force yourself to the next level until you honestly feel that you're ready. Progress at your own pace. You'll know when it feels right... it'll come from your gut and the next thing you know, you'll be doing it. Oh, and remember to have FUN!

Good luck!!

- OMW -

[martin_05]

Ditch the 450 as soon as you can. Save up some money and get a 500. Go flybarless if you can, less parts to deal with, easier setup, more stable. I went ahead and bought two 500's in anticipation of crashing my first one beyond recognition. In about four months of flying this has not happened.

I disagree with those who say that crashing often is part of learning. That may have been the case pre-simulators. I see no reason to attempt something with the real heli that you have not mastered on the sim through tens, hundreds or thousands of attempts --whatever it takes. Patience is the key.

I too started with a 400-class heli. Piece of crap. Not fun. Since you have one you have two choices, fly the heck out of it and get ready to move up when you destroy it. Or, sell it right now and move up to a 500. I sold it after my first crash (after repairing it) and moved on. The difference was beyond obvious the very first time I spooled-up the Trex-500. I had made the right decision.

Move up to torque tube and FBL as soon as you can. You don't need all the aluminum bling at this stage.

As far as "Practice makes Perfect", well, this is complete nonsense. You can practice the wrong way all you want and you'll never perfect anything. The right approach is "GOOD practice makes perfect".

Get on a program. Set goals for yourself. Don't approach the simulator without having a goal for the day or session. If you spent a whole day's worth of sim sessions practicing nose-in hover you should have made progress by the end of the day. Do it like that. Pick a reasonable progression skill and practice that --and only that-- until you feel that you don't have to focus on it so hard to make it happen. Can you look away and not loose the heli (on the sim)? Can you have your kids interrupt you and not go out of control? How about watching TV and flying?

Another thing that I practice on the sim is recovery. What I do is take the heli up to altitude and then contort the controls randomly. Then I try to recover. At first I'd crash it almost every single time. Now I can recover from just about anything probably 80% of the time. I've seen the results of these drills in other sim practice sessions when, for example, practicing a quick roll and the heli goes out of control. I find myself saying "I can't believe I saved that one" more often these days. This WILL save me money at the field.

Don't overdo the hovering! In my opinion, spending days and weeks practicing hovering on the sim is a total waste of time. I have well over twenty years of experience flying planes. When I teach someone to fly the very first thing I do is take them to altitude and tell them to crank each control to the limit. Elevator, aileron, rudder, motor, flaps, all of them. Why? The confidence level goes up 100% when you understand what the ship will do under extreme control. You are not afraid any more. And, the more you do it the more the plane seems to slow down. Your brain gets used to seeing it do what it does. So, for example, I tell them to go hard left with the ailerons and hold it. After a while I'll tell them to try to stop it after one turn. It generally doesn't take too long for the student to make that happen. They are not freaked out any more.

In my opinion hovering skills start to develop naturally as you get used to controlling the heli up in the air in all sorts of orientations and conditions. Again, I am talking about sim practice. Real life flying should always be a few weeks behind what you do in the sim and there are thing you do in the sim that you will not do at the field for quite some time --if not ever.

My point is, that rather than focusing countless hours on hovering practice you should invest hours in learning to fly and control the heli under a wide range of conditions. Your hover will improve as a result of your brain "slowing down" the action because you are so used to it. I now hover in every orientation for a minute or two as my daily practice, not more than that. So, maybe ten minutes or less of hovering and on to the other more important stuff.

Don't give up.
Be patient.
Practice the right things.
Have a plan.
Don't try anything at the field that you have not mastered on the sim.
You don't have to crash to learn.
Above all, have fun.

[scott246]

Great posts and very informative. I would agree 100%. And yes you don't have to crash to learn but at some point you will crash and you shouldn't be freaked out about it or be scared of crashing, Being cautious is good but scared to do more then hover will kill your motivation to progress. One of the guys at our field has been flying for 5 YEARS and cannot do anything outside of tail in.. Mainly because of being scared to crash.. I finally talked him into getting a simulator and we'll see how it goes. I'm fairly sure once the confidence is there he will get further along.

[scott246]

Originally Posted by oy2503

Hey - you don't need to crash.

I do not agree with those who say :

You have to crash to learn.

I started with a 450 last year and I haven't crashed yet.

I am practicing my nose-in now and flying circuits, stall turns,
loops, rolls and flips. Okay I used to fly planks - that helps some.

I've started using my 500ESP and like it. And a 550 plus a 600N
are almost ready and waiting their turns.

Now go fly the darn thing (450) and stop wasting your time with
the small stuff. Darn heli crack. I got my fix yesterday evening just
before heavy rain and thunder - 2 packs of 450 and one of 500.

Cheers
Erik

Trying new things always requires risk, No matter what it may be. If you are very careful and don't try anything until your 100% confident you won't crash but it will take you alot longer to make each step. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, It's definatly a good thing. But on the other hand I've been flying for almost 6 months now and can do everything you mentioned pretty solid so I guess it depends on how you look at it.

I do agree 100% with getting rid of the small stuff. I honestly don't know how anyone can have any type of success with them.

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by scott246

And yes you don't have to crash to learn but at some point you will crash and you shouldn't be freaked out about it or be scared of crashing

Right. Right. Of course. With over 20 years flying airplanes I still crash them. It was sort of a revelation to my son to see dad crash (not bad, but crash still) a high speed glider. After he saw me do that I saw him improve his skills a measurable amount. He was scared of crashing (and possibly thinking that I would not be very happy). Once he realized that even Dad can crash his mind freed up. The first time he crashed his trainer (pretty bad crash) I went up to him and said "Welcome to the club! Now, let's figure out why it happened and get you back in the air".

If you are afraid of crashing switch to RC cars or boats. Planes and helis will crash. Period. I once completely demolished $6,000 worth of F5B gliders in one afternoon. Painful.

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by scott246

I do agree 100% with getting rid of the small stuff. I honestly don't know how anyone can have any type of success with them.

I am learning on 250 and 450. Zero crashes. Approaching 100 flights.

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

I am learning on 250 and 450. Zero crashes. Approaching 100 flights.

Great! Didn't work for me. And I think it doesn't work for a lot of people for some reason.

BTW, I nearly crashed my 500 really hard today. The only thing that saved it was all the simulator time I've invested practicing recovery from weird and random attitudes. Much like on the sim, when it got away from me I just reacted --didn't think-- and recovered it something like 6 feet from a fence and trees and about 8 feet off the deck. Pure instinct flying, no thought. I was rattled but also really proud that I got to this point. I know I'll put it into the ground hard one day, it's almost inevitable, but events like today's prove that investing time methodically training on a simulator is worth thousands of dollars at the field.

[kumar2494]

I feel the same way you do. I just got a trex 600n, and the only thing I'm comfortable doing is hovering. This is the first 3d heli I've owned, but on the sim I look like alan szabo. I guess your personal learning timeline has do do with how comfortable you are with your heli and how much real world heli flying you do. I always tell people that the only thing flying on the sim does is help you learn your orientation.
Good luck

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by kumar2494

I feel the same way you do. I just got a trex 600n, and the only thing I'm comfortable doing is hovering. This is the first 3d heli I've owned, but on the sim I look like alan szabo. I guess your personal learning timeline has do do with how comfortable you are with your heli and how much real world heli flying you do. I always tell people that the only thing flying on the sim does is help you learn your orientation.
Good luck

Hmmm. Maybe your approach to the sim and the relationship to real-world flying is what is holding you back. I find that my son just screws around on the sim a lot rather than use it as a training tool unless I remind him that it is a tool. I don't have a problem with having a good time, but that's not why I got the sim.

I would suggest a regimented and layered approach to getting you off the ground and flying the real deal. You might want to read a long post I authored on this subject. Here it is:

https://www.helifreak.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=97

You really need to move past hovering on the real heli as soon as you can. Hovering is not a skill builder, it's a necessary evil --not quite, being dramatic-- and side effect of wanting to fly helis.

You need to work on the sim per the suggestions on my post to the point where you can take your heli up to 100 ft of altitude with confidence. The minute you do that you will remember my words: It is SO much easier up there. You have time to think. You have time to make mistakes. Very soon you'll be rolling the thing like there's no tomorrow.

Hope this helps.

[Apaolo]

Everything said in this thread is great advice. Only thing missing IMHO is that I noticed a sudden progression in my circuit flying when I decided to go night flying.

I know it doesn't make sense at first but its because you can see your main blades much clearer at night with bright LEDs showing you the blade disc in all its glory.

Going from this to daylight was a walk in the park and good bye to the hover pad.

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by Apaolo

Everything said in this thread is great advice. Only thing missing IMHO is that I noticed a sudden progression in my circuit flying when I decided to go night flying.

I know it doesn't make sense at first but its because you can see your main blades much clearer at night with bright LEDs showing you the blade disc in all its glory.

Going from this to daylight was a walk in the park and good bye to the hover pad.

That's an intriguing idea. I've been toying with the idea of starting to put LEDs on my T500 to be able to fly when it isn't quite dark. The next step would be full night flying. We'll see. I still have a lot of work on basic skills. Currently working on tail-first circuits on the sim, mostly at 50% physics.

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by martin_05

You really need to move past hovering on the real heli as soon as you can. Hovering is not a skill builder, it's a necessary evil --not quite, being dramatic-- and side effect of wanting to fly helis.

Hovering also allows to take off and land a heli. I know that for some people landing is optional, but I'd not exactly call it necessary evil .
Mastering hovering in any orientation opens up a road to another quite useful skill - it teaches how to stop a heli and hold it in safe position. Hitting the ground serves the same function, so I can agree it's still optional , but I'd think being able to not to drift into a tree, other person or the pits could be desirable.

Also, you saying that inverted hover is not necessary before doing stationary flips. How a person is supposed to learn a stationary flip (which means correcting during flip) if he can't hold a heli inverted after a half flip?

Have you ever done a 2 or 3 consecutive stationary flips before learning to hover inverted, at least nose in?

[Rªzª]

For martin and anyone else that is toying with the idea of slowing down the sim to practice. don't do it. you are hurting yourself more than helping. i tried this once while practicing piro flips to try to help get the stick timing down. All it did was make 100% seem freakishly fast. Don't need that. If anything practice at 110 to 120% I guarantee your regular flying will smooth out in no time

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by AcidDrink

Hovering also allows to take off and land a heli. I know that for some people landing is optional, but I'd not exactly call it necessary evil .
Mastering hovering in any orientation opens up a road to another quite useful skill - it teaches how to stop a heli and hold it in safe position. Hitting the ground serves the same function, so I can agree it's still optional , but I'd think being able to not to drift into a tree, other person or the pits could be desirable.

I think you are missing the point there. Hovering is important. Of course. My point is that it is almost useless to focus so much on hovering skills that one is afraid of flying. I have seen lots of guys at the field who are afraid of going past hovering for this very reason: All they do is hover. To progress you have to get past hovering immediately.

To be absolutely clear: I am talking about the sim here. I would not go to the field without having reasonable hovering skills in the sim.

Also, you saying that inverted hover is not necessary before doing stationary flips. How a person is supposed to learn a stationary flip (which means correcting during flip) if he can't hold a heli inverted after a half flip?

You don't need to know how to hover inverted in order to do flips, rolls, loops and flying various patterns. I can't hover inverted with any degree of authority yet. However, my sim and real-life flying consists of flips, rolls, spins, loops, high and low speed square, round and figure eight patterns in both directions. No problem.

Inverted hovering is just not required. My four year old kid can do flips and rolls (even consecutive) and even fly around a little on the simulator but can't even begin to hover right-side-up in any orientation whatsoever, much less inverted. So, I'll stand by what I said: One should not spend any time trying to master inverted hovering during the first phases of learning.

I have proven it to myself that hovering skills improve as a natural side-effect of simply flying the heli so long as you practice the various skills that I delineated in my post. Even inverted hovering will slowly start to come in as you learn to pause a flip, roll or loop. This is a much more natural and useful way to learn to fly because you are, well, learning to fly, not hover.

Have you ever done a 2 or 3 consecutive stationary flips before learning to hover inverted, at least nose in?

Like I said before, my kids can do flips but can't land or hover. My normal practice regime on the sim is to do continous rolls or flips and challenge myself to --as much as possible-- keep it in the same general vicinity.

Flips and rolls are easy. The simple version is as follows:

• Take heli up to safe altitude
• Bring collective to zero
• Apply full right, left, front or back cyclic.
• Recover to upright flight.

From that you progress to trying to make it stationary. All you have to do is learn to time your collective to maintain a suitable force vector. No big deal once you have done tons of simple flips on the sim and your brain slows down the action.

One thing that I stressed in my write-up was attitude recovery. To me this is far more important than learning to fly inverted. What you want to be able to do is recover the heli from any orientation back to an orientation that you can control. For me right now it means any upright orientation. For someone with a little bit less time on the sticks it might mean upright tail-in.

I commonly let my four year old crank on the controls and then take over to recover from the crazy orientation the got into. I know with absolute certainty that this practice has saved me thousands of dollars in the field.

BTW, this method is derived from the teaching method I use for airplanes. I don't focus on take off and landing. That is useless for a beginner to focus on when they don't have the basic hand-eye coordination down. Once they do OK in the air landings are just a side effect of flying (if taught correctly).

[martin_05]

Originally Posted by Rªzª

For martin and anyone else that is toying with the idea of slowing down the sim to practice. don't do it. you are hurting yourself more than helping. i tried this once while practicing piro flips to try to help get the stick timing down. All it did was make 100% seem freakishly fast. Don't need that. If anything practice at 110 to 120% I guarantee your regular flying will smooth out in no time

I think I agree to some extent, but maybe you are a little too advanced to remember the perils or a newbie. I have used the reduced physics approach with great success. However, I stress that one should strive to get back up to full speed as quickly as possible. The basic idea is to give yourself time to think. And, if used in that fashion, it works very well.

I don't run with slow physics as a normal training regime. I only use it when at 100% physics all I do is crash, which means that I just don't have the eye-brain-hand programming quite down yet. Things are happening too fast. Constantly crashing is not productive. So, slow it down a little. Give yourself time to develop the eye-brain-hand response and gradually speed it back up to normal or better than normal.

I have been using this for inverted hovering and circuits with great success. I think it is an important and useful tool if applied correctly.

[AcidDrink]

Originally Posted by martin_05

Even inverted hovering will slowly start to come in as you learn to pause a flip, roll or loop. This is a much more natural and useful way to learn to fly because you are, well, learning to fly, not hover.

You won't be able to realiable pause a flip or a roll if you don't learn to hover inverted first and you won't be able to correct (keep it stationary) if you can't pause it.
It won't come natural from flying figure 8 or recovering a helicopter from a fall.
All you will learn that way is what I call "panic flips". Push elevator up, close your eyes and pray. I see a lot of people doing these everywhere.

Your whole "method" seems to me to be taken straight from flying a plane with slight modifications, well, helicopters are different. Even if some of it may work, you are skipping a lot of basics and going straight to some semi-advanced manoeuvres like mentioned stationary flips. Most likely at some point you going to hit a brick wall (probably around when you attempt any inverted flight) and will have to go back to basics, which is hovering in place, doing a lot of slow piros on the spot and slow precise circuits at walk speed. What hovering teaches you first and foremost is very small, fast and precise controls, semi-concious corrections, which are required for every other maneuver later on.

Learn to hover first, solid, all upright orientations (nose in too) - it will not come naturally from just flying around, then go fly lazy 8, circles, regular eight and so on, with some very slow stationary (that means within around 2x2 meters square) pirouettes (both sides) thrown in - what you call "altitude recovery" won't be necessary, because you won't need it.