From tail-in to all 8s and funnels in 6 months

[nougiw]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Wind in hover training in possible (go to menu ("`" key). Use command "windSpeed 10" to get 10mph winds. Use "windTurbulence 50" to get 50% turbulence. Use "loadVehicle <heli name>" to load the heli you want. Just tested it on 6.5, I know it works.

Thank you very much for this, I was aware of the loadvehicle command but not of the windspeed one.

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Fast piro is 360 degrees rotation rate or better.

And what would be a slow piro? 180 or 90? or way less?

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

You will eventually get to switch between corrections mid-sequence too.

By that you mean I'll get to correct in any given point of a single rotation, or something more complex?

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

nougiw, You are beyond where I am currently in skill, but not yet as far as I intend to go.

I find it hard to believe that. I mean, seeing your guide and watching those videos, I thought you had already completed it. Aren't you the one who flies in the example videos? Or you passed the guide once and now you are back again to do everything with wind and/or more precision? Anyway, I think it's even more astonishing having made this guide since you are not an experienced pilot. Indeed very well done!

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

During a fast piro, the fingers get to a sequenced correction, not individual directions. The challenge is timing these corrections with the tail position. It's like learning to play an advanced piano piece (think "flight of the bumble bee"). You originally learn all of the keys, then drill going faster and faster till its just a blur. You end up thinking sequence and the fingers just do.

I was really afraid it would be like that. Now it is confirmed too. That means there is still a very long road ahead. Anyway, on April the 15th, it will be six months since I started the guide. There have been long periods of time that I wasn't able to session every day due to the lack of a pc. But if you session EVERY day for six months I think it's pretty much possible to complete up to 5c in six months. Yet, I can safely presume that you need at least one year if you want to meticulously complete the whole guide with wind and extreme precision in every single exercise. Of course this is only a hard estimate. I'll keep posting as I move on...

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by nougiw

...
And what would be a slow piro? 180 or 90? or way less?
...
By that you mean I'll get to correct in any given point of a single rotation, or something more complex?
...

I find it hard to believe that. I mean, seeing your guide and watching those videos, I thought you had already completed it. Aren't you the one who flies in the example videos? Or you passed the guide once and now you are back again to do everything with wind and/or more precision? Anyway, I think it's even more astonishing having made this guide since you are not an experienced pilot. Indeed very well done!
...

I was really afraid it would be like that. Now it is confirmed too. That means there is still a very long road ahead. Anyway, on April the 15th, it will be six months since I started the guide. There have been long periods of time that I wasn't able to session every day due to the lack of a pc. But if you session EVERY day for six months I think it's pretty much possible to complete up to 5c in six months. Yet, I can safely presume that you need at least one year if you want to meticulously complete the whole guide with wind and extreme precision in every single exercise. Of course this is only a hard estimate. I'll keep posting as I move on...

Yes I flew every example at 100% sim speed (no wind - Only the final all 8's example took 2 recording attempts as I was not happy with the first). I am still working on fast piro's though. I also only fly the compass pattern occasionally (but still have infrequent inverted sessions as a reminder (in the small circle with turbulent wind on).

Yes, a year or more for precision in wind for all exercises.

These moves are the basis for every other form of flying. The better you get at them, the better the rest of your flying. Even when you are piro-flipping on the deck, these exercises still help make you better.

A slow piro is 1-2 rotations per minute. A fast piro is 60 or more rotations per minute.

[pscm]

We finally had some decent warm weather today, 50F. Snow is to soft to fly anything but the nano though it was fun. Inverted forward flight, inverted control piro hovers, upright tail first, pretty ugly rainbows and various figure eights. Sim time is definitely paying off. Can't wait to get the big toys out.

[nougiw]

Thank you very much for your time once again, and please check also this question I forgot to ask yesterday. On piro travel, do you exercise all possible combinations available or only the ones that help in piroflips? For example for upright traveling piros, you can make cw rotation and fly a ccw circle with the cyclic stick (I'm in mode 2) OR make a ccw rotation and fly a cw circle. Both of those advanced movements are going to help you in piroflip(normal and reverse) maneuvers eventually. But when piro-traveling you can also make cw rotations and fly in cw circles or ccw rotations and fly in ccw circles, which is not used in any advanced maneuver as far as I know. However, for some strange reason, I'm already sure you are going to say that I have to practice all four combinations no matter what, right?

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by nougiw

Thank you very much for your time once again, and please check also this question I forgot to ask yesterday. On piro travel, do you exercise all possible combinations available or only the ones that help in piroflips? For example for upright traveling piros, you can make cw rotation and fly a ccw circle with the cyclic stick (I'm in mode 2) OR make a ccw rotation and fly a cw circle. Both of those advanced movements are going to help you in piroflip(normal and reverse) maneuvers eventually. But when piro-traveling you can also make cw rotations and fly in cw circles or ccw rotations and fly in ccw circles, which is not used in any advanced maneuver as far as I know. However, for some strange reason, I'm already sure you are going to say that I have to practice all four combinations no matter what, right?

You know me well enough to know the eventual answer (practice all 4 for upright and all 4 for for inverted). circles CW/CCW - piros CW/CCW - upright/inverted.

I find piroing in the direction of the circle (upright or inverted) easier.

Piro-flips are a weird animal. They do not feel like a circle at all. There are heaps of tips on getting those in the Flight School forum. Mastering corrections in all orientations is a pre-requisite to this move.

[jarbona]

I am interested in purchasing this simulator. However, the download page show the cost in Euros. Will my credit card be charged with the US $ equivalent?

Thanks,

Joe

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by jarbona

I am interested in purchasing this simulator. However, the download page show the cost in Euros. Will my credit card be charged with the US $ equivalent?

Thanks,

Joe

Yes.

[VonRecktofen]

Hey Gang,
Been a while since I've posted on this thread, but have to say, my flying has greatly improved since starting the training method...Have really stepped up flying confidence IRL, started solid stall turns in FF with my Trex450FBL Beater, lots of stationary flips with mCPX BL, and even starting some loosely controlled inverted flight...

It's amazing/baffling how learning skills stay stagnant for a while, then almost all at once, things start to click... Almost like a computer download bar that gets stuck at 1/4 progress, stuff loads up slowly, then all of a sudden, something clicks, and the rest of the progress bar loads really quickly! With more orientation confidence, you start trying IRL moves that you would never before...

I foresee that this season will result in a huge improvement in my IRL flying, probably the most since I started messing with helis in 2006, and it will be mostly due to following the methods in this thread...

Thanks again, ArchmageAU, for posting this great thread, concept, and method to learn Heli piloting!

Cheers!
Franz in NJ

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Charliedontsurf

Hey Gang,
Been a while since I've posted on this thread, but have to say, my flying has greatly improved since starting the training method...Have really stepped up flying confidence IRL, started solid stall turns in FF with my Trex450FBL Beater, lots of stationary flips with mCPX BL, and even starting some loosely controlled inverted flight...
....

This is the stuff I love to hear.

More people enjoying flying and progressing to flying the way they want (more confidence, and learning in such a way that crashing is far less often - and therefore whole hobby is less expensive).

With the money saved by not crashing my X5, I am now looking at getting a 700 (finance minister approved ).

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I just wanted to update here a bit.

I started in late January, when I turned 42.

I started strong, but did not keep a daily schedule for long. But I do it when I can.

But I have been at a plateau for a long long time. I think I have not really felt an improvement in my flying since February.

I was really hung up on the slow piro. I could 270 degrees...but somehow couldn't ever quite make it all the way around. Even if I started nose in and got all the way around...something in my head was never quite was quick enough to prevent leaving the circle. Literally once in 100 hours of SIMming up till this week did I make it around at 1 rotation per second.

Let it be mentioned here, I followed a stricter version of the course. I always have used 100%, i.e. never slowed time. And I always have used the smallest circle in Heli-X hover training. I don't know why, but I started this way and stuck with it.

But this week, Wednesday night to be precise, I found myself going around without crashing. It has held up over the last three nights and I am overjoyed. Somehow something clicked nearly at once. Three days later, tonight I could do 2 rotations per minute for as long as I wanted, actually sharpening during the session now each time. I might begin a little out of center, but by the 2nd rotation, I am locked in.

I was stuck and frustrated. For a month during free play, I was playing with circuits and found the collective plus elevator part of a basic turn natural...but when the nose came around, I lost control and too often miscorrected as I exited the turn. I just had no firm control in the nose in orientation unless I started there, and then it was only a matter of time before a serious miscorrection would lead to disaster.

I have an mCPX BL that I have not dared go out of tail in or side orientations because the few times I have, I have lost control. I just inevitably miscorrect. Lazy 8's and spot to spot hovering/landing. Sad really.

All those problems are disappearing at once. I did my first virtual figure 8's today. Not perfect, but my mind is feeling loose and relaxed with respect to orientation, and something feels more instinctual now. I don't think about it and can concentrate on the turn. It's crazy!

Aoxomoxoa came over me Wednesday night. I literally was zoning out during the hovering and it just happened. And now it seems I more or less the basic idea in place. Now to burn it in good!! And to try it in real life!!

I am almost ready for HeliMasters!

Thanks ArchAU!

obi

[wab223]

Obi,
if you only started helis in January you are doing fantastic. I'm not sure why you have punished yourself with the small cirlcle and 100% sim speed from the get go. But hey if it works for you great. Inverted piros, in the beginning, I needed to slow heli-x to about 60% and use the xlarge circle. I started inverted at Christmas and even now I am only down to the medium circle for 8 to 12 point slow piros on 100% sim speed. There are still points where I am using the whole area to keep it together. Its not always pretty but I don't crash. Upright the small circle is fine but my slow piros are not steady like Archies video.
I started CP back in November 2012. This waffle is just to give you reference point, from where I am standing you are progressing pretty quickly.

[jmtyndall]

Keep it up guys. I'm feeling the pain as I start doing faster and faster piros. Upright I usually master in a couple of days, inverted has been taking me a while. Roughly two weeks to get from 1 rotation every 6 seconds, to one every 4. I'm about a week and a half into 1 rotation every 4 seconds, and I had upright down to 0 crashes in two days. Inverted, I can get a zero crash session, but then the next is always 1 or 2 crashes.

God forbid I take a day off. I'm working so many skills in sim time right now that all atrophy if I don't fly every day. Inverted piros go to 3 or 4 crashes per session if I miss two days. When that happens I'll usually do a few 8 point piros and I'll get back to the swing of things

[Joce]

Hello Archmage,
First,I would like to thank you. Your support in helifreak is amazing. You found the best way to share your passion and use your talents for the community. How many post from you I've seen that directly provided the good solution!

As many I followed your training guide. When I started it, I already had many hours trying to hover up and inv. Just 4 orientations no piro. IRL, in inverted, I could only hover the nano tail in, still with quite many crashes. In 2 months I got both up and inv without crash in simu.
Then I thought that was it. I made other lessons but not that precisely. Also lacked time.
In 6 next months I could do some circles in all directions up inverted and thanks to 130x, could soon transfer these inverted circles on my 450.
Then I crashed first time my mini protos. With this crash I realized that I had never felt comfortable with 450, always feared to crash (nothing like this with the 130x) even with basic forward flying.
I actually couldn't even do a forward circle consistently. I mean, I can do it in any conditions without crashing but I'm far from being able to do a nice circle with very few corrections. Having lessons 1 and 4 done is not all ! It's just the beginning.
So recently, I started over from lesson 2 and slowly came to the feeling that if I want to progress, I must always anticipate the position where I want to be. Until now, I was just trying to keep heli in the air, in an approximate direction. So, a circle was never a circle. Doing lazy 8's, just thinking a bit forward of the path I want to be in, allowed me to have quite nice 8's, and started to enjoy doing these lazy 8's. Maybe the first time I felt I was controlling the bird.
One thing that makes me think I'm progressing is that after 10min of simulation I'm done. This anticipation is requiring a lot of concentration just like piro hover training.
I'm now 3 weeks ahead in this process and feel a real improvement. I only work on lazy 8's, forward and backward flights upright circles and 8's. Today on my rebuilt mini protos, I was 99% sure I would not crash because I was reproducing these lessons where I never crash in simu. That's first time I feel that good.
Unfortunately, I didn't manage to have smooth circles backward as I sometimes have in simu but it will come for sure. I will go on these lessons 6 and 7 until I can 100% reproduce the same circle I want in a smooth way.

I also started lazy 8's for inverted. I can say I really struggled before getting my first circle inverted. I feel lazy 8's could be a good transition to circles as well as for upright. At least I could see that even being able to do some inverted circles, I was far from having nice inverted lazy 8's. As these helped me in upright to progress on my circles, why not use them in inverted.
Another point is that lazy 8's are easier to "auto" evaluate compared to circles. An inversion is immediately killing the 8.

I'm still in the very early step of the learning curve but I feel that a good way to know you are comfortable with a figure is that the corrections you make to follow the trajectory are no more visible meaning your action to go where you want to go is precise enough and in some way contains the correction itself. Not sure that's very clear
Maybe it has something to do with the "feel connected" I see here and there.

Joce

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Joce

Hello Archmage,
First,I would like to thank you. Your support in helifreak is amazing. You found the best way to share your passion and use your talents for the community. How many post from you I've seen that directly provided the good solution!
...
Doing lazy 8's, just thinking a bit forward of the path I want to be in, allowed me to have quite nice 8's, and started to enjoy doing these lazy 8's. Maybe the first time I felt I was controlling the bird
....
I also started lazy 8's for inverted. I can say I really struggled before getting my first circle inverted. I feel lazy 8's could be a good transition to circles as well as for upright. At least I could see that even being able to do some inverted circles,
....
I'm still in the very early step of the learning curve but I feel that a good way to know you are comfortable with a figure is that the corrections you make to follow the trajectory are no more visible meaning your action to go where you want to go is precise enough and in some way contains the correction itself. Not sure that's very clear
Maybe it has something to do with the "feel connected" I see here and there.
...

Clear enough (and thank you).

Inverted lazy 8's are a good transition into inverted full 8's. It's trying to keep you ahead of the heli.

That "connectedness" is what makes you comfortable flying. I find if I KNOW what the heli is going to do, then there is little nervousness. If I am all unsure, then the nerves really kick in.

Well done and happy flying.

[Joce]

Thanks Archmage for your reply.
Here is a video of my last training session on upright lazy 8's

Even for this simple figure, the collective needs to be anticipated. It happens sometimes, usually when I activate the wind, but also here with no wind, that I reverse the collective: when heli takes altitude (non anticipated) I push even more the collective resulting in weird behavior.

Struggled a bit to convert Heli-X5 to youtube.
Quality is poor because my mac is too slow to capture bigger image with quicktime player.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Joce

Thanks Archmage for your reply.
Here is a video of my last training session on upright lazy 8's

Even for this simple figure, the collective needs to be anticipated. It happens sometimes, usually when I activate the wind, but also here with no wind, that I reverse the collective: when heli takes altitude (non anticipated) I push even more the collective resulting in weird behavior.

Struggled a bit to convert Heli-X5 to youtube.
Quality is poor because my mac is too slow to capture bigger image with quicktime player.

Looks good. Like that you do both inwards and outwards, tail-in and nose-in lazy 8's. You are keeping it infront of you well.

Should try turn the tail more at the ends so the centers become nose or tail first. teaches how to do banked turns.

The extra lift at the ends is due to translational lift into clean air. Happens normally and needs to be catered for. Likewise, flying in wind as you go upwind you get more lift, downwind less (and you need to be ready for that). Flying IRL with X5 in 20+ km/h wind, turn from upwind to downwind can drop very quickly (as you go from 60+ km/h to 20+ km/h air speed in under a second).

(also like how you landed sideways ).

[Zoner]

Awesome thread, going to give this a shot....

[strtbobber]

Thanks so much to ArchmageAU for putting a regimented training program together. I've been dabbling in helis for about a year or so and have always been discouraged. I've flown rc planes for over 20 years, so I thought the transition was going to be easier than it's been. I now know that that was an unrealistic expectation. My problem has been not knowing how to attack learning how to fly a heli. With this "plan", it makes it a lot easier. I'm not sure how fast I'll learn, but that's not what it's all about for me. It's more about learning than how fast I can learn it. I basically fly my heli around like an airplane.....but, thanks to you, I am learning how to fly and understand heli flight.

..............and thank you!!!!

[freeridert]

I can't believe how long I have been lurking on this site and just saw this today.
I have probably 30 hours in sim and 20 IRL flights. I just decided to start flying these things one day with no direction whatsoever. Needles to say I can't even do the first step. I can do a tic-toc in sim but it looks horrible, now I know why.
so......
thanks for the post, man. This will be fun again.

[SLMcc]

I'm late to the party myself. I started flying 4 channel v911's last August and pretty quick got a couple Walkera and Blade 6 channel birds, all micro stuff I can fly in my living room and back yard. No real idea what I was doing, just flying and crashing. Inside I can hover tail in. Outside I can sort of, kinda fly aaround without too much trouble but it sure aain't pretty! I bought Phoenix at a garage sale last year but really didn't know where to start. This looks like a terrific plan!