Do you know Pulsar 3?

[Ivamos]

IR: A normal charger see (can measure) only U between plus and minus.
Your information is little out of date. Either that or the iChargers, the Cellpros and Powerlabs are “above average” when it comes to measuring IR. All use the 4-wire Kelvin method with the Powerlabs being independently proven to have the most accurate readings.

By the way - can you explain me how is it possible to measure internal reistance with 4 wire cables under charging current?
Kelvin4 Wire Methode has still the problem, that it cannot recognise the voltage on battery from voltage from current on batterys resistance. This way you can eliminate only lost of voltage on charging wires resistance!
Using high charging currents - there is still a big problem with battery internal resistance.
There is no other way as making a charging break and measure the voltage without charging current.
Speaking about break a and small negative impulse - i am not speaking over Reflex charging. This impulse is used to shorten the process and measure the real cell voltage. If you break a charging with high current - it will take some time to stabilise the voltage. After some amount of time - it fall down. This impulse shorten this time and deliver a measurement free of error!
Look at the picture. Under charging current your Voltmeter show only voltage between plus and minus of the cell. But this is the voltage from battery itself and the voltage of current on resistance.
You know Ub+Ui=U. Or Ub + (I x R) =U.
You try to measure Ub - but before you don`t know the R - you still miss one variable to know Ub.
If you make a charging break - and the I = zero you know all. Ub + IxR= U so Ub + 0 = U. Or Ub = U.
Measuring with charging current and without too - give you real voltage of the cell and give you always information about actual inner resistance.
So if the cell get damaged and te resistance get high - you can see it during charging!
Of course - you have no chance, if you charge paralell.

[Gregor99]

Oh Greg. I am not a small boy. I did made my e- engineer on university and there is a 20 year practice behind me.

I'm disappointed you did not explain why the connections were incorrect. Perhaps it was easy for you to see the error, but I wonder how my others reading this thread were able to spot it? More on this in a later.

So what happen when i close cell with 4,1V together with a cell with 3,6V?
You need to read the entire thread as well as do a little more homework on parallel charging. In this case, there is a brief in-rush of current from the high cell to the low cell. Depending on the pack, this may exceed the pack's maximum charge rating. This high current state is fairly brief. Packs with a cell difference of 0.2v barely produce enough voltage differential to cause much current to flow.

I will admit Julez' perfect view of parallel charging has some less than perfect real world issues. However if one follows some basic rules about parallel charging it can be very beneficial and safe for the packs. Most modelers are parallel charging the same size of packs and similar state of charge (within 0.1v or below per cell). These are on packs capable of 5c or 10c charge rates. So no overcurrent issues even with large differences in state of charge, which is unlikely to begin with.

Except for the safety issues with serial charging, I'd prefer it over parallel charging. However I am in the minority. It’s a simple fact that parallel charging is in wide spread use, widely accepted as safe, and considered by many to be "good enough". At least as of today it is cost prohibitive to acquire a serial charger that do the same job as a high wattage charger and a parallel board.

This is not my opinion, is just a fact of the US market. If want your charger to make in-roads here, you will need a better, more convincing argument against parallel charging. So far every concern you have raised is either been disproven or dismissed on this forum as well as RC Groups. If you believe you can convince anyone that parallel charging is so horrible, start by going to this thread and making your case. More power to you http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932319 I have already posted on my concerns about parallel charging here and on RCG. No need to rehash this, you can search on my old posts.

By the way - can you explain me how is it possible to measure internal reistance with 4 wire cables under charging current?
I answered this earlier. Please read my posts carefully and ask for clarification if you need it. Here's more info. The iCharger uses the 4-Wire Kelvin method, but only during discharge. Even the bottom of the line $89 iCharger has this feature. Though its accuracy may be called into question, it is close enough for many, especially given the cost difference.

The Powerlab and Cellpro chargers measure during the charge cycle, but charging is briefly paused for the IR readings. It looks like the Pulsar may have adopted a similar method. I and others have independently verified the Powerlab's IR accuracy using other means. Can the same be said of the Pulsar? Since you enjoy homework projects, locate the thread on RCG where this is discussed in detail. If you give up, I may give you the links.

So if the cell get damaged and te resistance get high - you can see it during charging!
This also true of the Powerlabs and Cellpros which I believe are the only other line of chargers which can show individual IR cell voltage during a charge. The others report total pack IR (not using the Kelvin method so totally useless as it includes wire resistance), or only show IR during discharge or special IR measurement mode. Not useless, but not part of the normal workflow, so IR is not visible unless the user takes additional steps and selects "Special Mode".

Of course - you have no chance, if you charge paralell.
With regards to IR and parallel charging, that is not accurate. While it is true that the most accurate IR readings should be done on individual packs, the Powerlabs do accommodate IR in parallel. Here's how; When packs are in parallel, the charger can still take IR readings. However the results will be lower because the resistance paths are in parallel. For two equal cells in parallel, the resulting IR will be half.

When the user started the charge, they selected the number of packs in parallel. As I mentioned earlier, this is used for multiplying current as well as averaging mah put into the packs. For the IR reading the Powerlab will multiply the measured IR by the number of packs in parallel. Like the mah, the result is the average IR across all cells in parallel.

Like I said, it’s not as perfect as a one-to-one charging / balancing /IR scenario. But is plenty good enough to alert the user that one of the cells in parallel has an issue. I'm speaking from personal experience here, it’s not just theory. When I see one cell's IR higher than the others (which I have), I'll charge the packs separately to determine which pack has the cell with the issue.




Here's my recommendation for you. This is not personal or anything against your charger. Just giving you some positive direction to focus your passion. Take it or leave it.

1. Go back and read the Julez thread from start to finish. There are holes to be poked in parallel charging. But you are not quite there yet. Once you are ready, respond in Julez thread with the issues you've found. To win the serial charging story, first you have to convince that crowd that parallel charging is bad. Accurate statements backed by credible test data are respected more than speculation. However, even with lab results, charts, and logs you will still have an uphill battle convincing them that parallel charging is bad. If you can accomplish that, you may be able open new interest in the Pulsar, maybe.
2. Review the threads on IR measurement on RCG. There are some very interesting and informative posts with very good detail and depth. That will give you a better perspective on what the competition is doing and what the current thinking is around IR measurement and meaning.
3. Purchase and use a Powerlab. Spend enough time to become intimately familiar with it so you better understand its pros and cons compared to the Pulsar. Resale value on FMA chargers is excellent because there are so few on the used market. Not many are willing to part with thier Powerlabs. But thats good for you as once you are done with it you can sell with very little loss.

[Slyster]

I've been following this discussion... and this is actually a very interesting thread

[Ivamos]

I'm disappointed you did not explain why the connections were incorrect

Is there a need to explain why is it not funny to make short circuit? You did it specially unfair and more complicate reversing physically the balancer socket. Sorry but even a monkey learns by how to connect two packs and the Pulsar 3 is nothing for the mentally handicapped, who can not read the instructions. There are still less rules as for parallel charging.

However if one follows some basic rules about parallel charging it can be very beneficial and safe for the packs...

Please Greg - instead of giving me the command or recommendations what i should do, read carefully what i am writing. Its not me that say paralell charging is dangerous, its you saying that serial charging is dangerous.
I personally use since years very often paralell charging - for small 5EUro indoor batteries. But ALWAYS the some kind of batteries, the some state of charge and the some capacity. Irealy don`t need to read 50 site thread, when it beginns with completelly wrong formula to calculate the current. I am dissapointig, that you recommend me such an article.
So i agree with you with the first part- if one follows some basic rules about parallel charging .... i would end the sentence with, "can time to time charge several packs together" and spare time.
But : "it can be very beneficial and safe for the packs" is definitelly wrong! There are no benefits for the packs.
Its definitelly only cheaper resolution.
Due to this is alway recommended - if you have the time, charge the pack separatelly!

Except for the safety issues with serial charging, I'd prefer it over parallel charging. It’s a simple fact that parallel charging is in wide spread use, widely accepted as safe, and considered by many to be "good enough".

This definitely does not interest me. Millions of people says, that a Volkswagen Golf is good enough and this far have not forced the rest of the world to find that it makes no sense to do a better cars. Your argument is a little childish.

At least as of today it is cost prohibitive to acquire a serial charger that do the same job as a high wattage charger and a parallel board.

Heureka! I am very glad - that you finally did understand it. This is the reason, why High End charger capable to load 16 LiPo Cells in serie cost more than twice as an Powerlab8 for 8Cells.
Do you like to buy two chargers or charge parallel sacrificing quality? Its your decision.
But do not withhold your decision with ridiculous arguments.

I and others have independently verified the Powerlab's IR accuracy using other means. Can the same be said of the Pulsar?

Sorry Greg - but this kind of discussion evidence of your ignorance. The is really a world outside the USA. Pulsar is not charger projected to be a mass product made in china.
Behind this charger is a lot of technology projected and used for car and aviation industry and military in whole europa. I am happy, that the constructor with his incredible knowledge and experience decided to make available it for hobbyist. Products from ELPROG are near 10 years on the market and they quality and innovative solutions is confirmed by a lot of users and a whole bunch of tests in specialist magazines.
Here you have a scan from Model aviator about Equal from Elprog. A 220 Euro Balancer.
http://www.elprog.com.pl/english/zdj...0AV0508_de.pdf
220 Euro for a balancer. What is the conclusion? "Der EQUAL präsentiert sich als
Highend-Equalizer der absoluten Spitzenklasse und erhält die uneingeschränkte Empfehlung des Autors."
"The EQUAL presents itself as High-end equalizer of the top class and gets the full recommendation of the author. "

Purchase and use a Powerlab. Spend enough time to become intimately familiar with it so you better understand its pros and cons compared to the Pulsar

Instead of writing such a things, take the proposed challenge and compare the pros. Except much lover price you will don`t find anything what can Powerlab8 better as the Pulsar 3. You are the one that did start the comparison. Not me.
A lot of text about benficials for packs by parallel charging - but at the end:

Like I said, it’s not as perfect as a one-to-one charging / balancing /IR scenario.

Given that serial charging is "one-to-one charging / balancing / scenario" did you realised now, that charging parallel is not as perfect as serial charging.
So please uderstand - i did start to speak about Pulsar 3 technology.
And Pulsar is not a charger for people saying that somenthing is "not so perfect, but good enough".
Pulsar 3 is for people they wanna have the best what is possible.
You self can see, that ELPROG excellent sold the task.
We can compare - what makes more sense? Possibility to control 15 Units from an single panel with dual line text display - or the possibility to wireless connection with your smartphone?
I do not know your experience - but i do charge on field on a safe place, but i am flying or waiting 30 - 40 meters further. I love to have anything under control without being over the equipment. This are screenshots from mobile phone application.



Using a laptop you can of course connect to a lot of Pulsars simultaneously.

[Gregor99]

I want to start my reply by going back to beginning and frame all of my responses within the context of the first post.

Originally Posted by Ivamos

I am negatively surprised, that the Pulsar 3 Charger from ELPROG seems to be here completelly unknown. It's a waste, because im think - its one of the best and powefulls High End chargers in the world, especially for us.

First you were negatively surprised about the products lack of popularity. I and other have attempted to address that. The economy in the US makes it difficult for anyone to afford this hobby. Often a decision is based on price alone. Secondly, I misread your second sentance. Because English is not your primary language, I thought you miss typed US as “us”. Consequently I thought you were referring specifically to the US market. That is the main reason I kept bringing it up. Sorry for the confusion. More comments below:

Originally Posted by Ivamos

Read carefully what i am writing. Its not me that say paralell charging is dangerous

It’s good to see that your views on parallel charging have changed from the start of this thread. I did read carefully and below is what I found. I’m not trying to “catch you” contradicting yourself. I am trying be clear as why I included my comments about parallel charging and address your statement that "paralell charging is dangerous".

Originally Posted by Ivamos

• You are definitelly not right. If there are any difference - you have problem with uncontrolled flowing current between them

• Please be extremelly carefully with paralell charging. Always check the voltage of every single pack before and never charge batteries with different voltages!

• When the cell are not identical voltage and capacity - are this "modern trends a ravishment for the cells!

• paralell batteries with different capacity and state of charge is dangerous and significantly shorten the live of your batteries.

Regarding safety issues with serial charging, it is a common. There are some products that offer serial charging boards with little or no instructions. Some modelers simply make an honest mistake when connecting two identical connectors. Some manufactures have gone out if their way to prevent these issues with resettable fuses, or sensing and latching circuits that verify the connections before closing. Instead of smoke, you get a friendly message on screen. The user can simply correct the issue and continue. Your day at the field is not over. One such charger has been on the market for over 5 years.

I do not agree with Pulsar’s approach to simply “let it burn”. Then repair or discard. In this regard, Pulsar is over 5 year behind the competition. While you may feel it’s not an issue, you are in the minority. For $500 I expect more from a charger.

Also, do you realize that in the text below, you’ve just insulted everyone who accidentally fried their balance wires serial charging? This is inconsistent with the forum moto “Fun, Learning, Friendship, and Mutual Respect”. Please try to keep these guiding principles in mind as you contribute to Helifreak.

Originally Posted by Ivamos

Sorry but even a monkey learns by how to connect two packs and the Pulsar 3 is nothing for the mentally handicapped, who can not read the instructions.

I know the last word is important to you. As this is your thread, I will grant you that. Just be aware that if I have no further contributions in this thread, is because I’m yielding the last word to you as the topic starter. That and it appears that we have exhausted the technical value of this thread.

[Ivamos]

First you were negatively surprised about the products lack of popularity.

No! I surprised, that ist unknown on this forum. Its a big difference. Something unknown has no chance to be popular. For this i did the charger presented here.

It’s good to see that your views on parallel charging have changed from the start of this thread.

Definitelly no! There is not a smalest change in my opinion about paralell charging. I still say - that you can safe charge paralell only batteries with identical voltage, identical condition, identical state of charge and identical capacity.
Its definitelly not better for batteries as serial charging, its definitelly not safer as serial charging. I did exactly and extensively wrote why.
And the rule for calculate current from your link is definitelly wrong and dangerous! Do not try to make my statement any other interpretations!

Some manufactures have gone out if their way to prevent these issues with resettable fuses, or sensing and latching circuits that verify the connections before closing. Instead of smoke, you get a friendly message on screen. The user can simply correct the issue and continue...

Complete nonsense! There is no way to veryfing or protect a circuit from your picture, because the short circuit you demonstrate happens outside of the charger. I am sure - you know it. You did even specially reverse the sides of the connectors to let it look naturally.
So anything what you are writing to this thema - is a deliberate lie.
Since plus and minus from power and balancer wires are closed together internal in battery - i can simple erase the whole charger in the picture to show for anyone, that you closed short directly battery to battery.
There is no way for friendly message if you do direct short circuit outside the charger. There is only a chance to avoid seriously injury and damaging of the batteries.
And this do the Pulsars adapter design definitelly perfect. So if you don`t read the instruction (and you can be sure - there is one for Pulsar ) and if you do the worst scenario and such a "honest mistake" - not ever is your day at the field over, you not do to be in the hospital with burn injurys.
Even with a path burned out, you still can charge and balance on single balancing connector - one battery after other. Or even if you will: paralell.

Also, do you realize that in the text below, you’ve just insulted everyone who accidentally fried their balance wires serial charging?

Since i am speaking definitelly about Pulsar 3 - the answer is NO! The procedure recommended by Pulsar is simple, safe and you have to complete ignore anything to do it wrong.

Just be aware that if I have no further contributions in this thread, is because I’m yielding the last word to you as the topic starter.

Greg i simply do not know why you do this. My intention was to show a High End device, that is respected by lot of demanding users in Europe.
You are trying at all costs find that your Powerlab8 is better, but you not have the courage to take the challenge and show anything, what can Powerlab8 do better as Pulsar3.
You self say, that parallel charging ist not so perfect as serial charging.
But you still try to trying to argue that, and so is better, because you preffer it (as would say anyone other who not have a charger with possibility to charge serial ) and your one an only argument "dangerous serial" is artificial and strained. Yes - these are rules by serial charging too. The most important is - follow the reccomended procedure a connect it right! If you are still uncertain, take a color marker and you will never use the wrong socket.
It would be my pleasure to continue the technical discussion in a pleasant atmosphere with you or anyone, if you would not try to argue below the belt.
However, if you can only fabricate facts, to argue - in this Universum its not possible to produce better charger as Powerlab8, i will not missing your voice. Have a nice day.

[buzzsaw 46]

Originally Posted by Ivamos

No! I surprised, that ist unknown on this forum. Its a big difference. Something unknown has no chance to be popular. For this i did the charger presented here.

You are mistaken it is known, perhaps not widely, and still unpopular. No U.S. distributor, and expensive make it unpopular.

[Ivamos]

Thinking this way a Ferrari 428 Italia is known, perhaps not widely, and still unpopular. No U.S. distributor, and expensive make it unpopular.
But its a joke to compare it with Honda Civic Typer R ( whitch is a very good car) and speaking - its a better sportcar, because its cheaper to produce a good handling 200HP car than a 570HP car.
Or saying - for this price you can have two Hondas and it still will be cheaper and you can drive simultaneously with your wife. " Yes - Ferrari is maybe faster, but driving too fast ist very dangerous! A lot of people are injured driving fast and making a "honest mistake".
When i say: i have more cars too - its childisch to write :"It’s good to see that your views have changed from the start of this thread."
I am sure, that even in U.S. there a lot of people, who intrigue Ferraris sportcar technology, no only rejecting anything at the beginning speaking "in the U.S. we have Honda Civic Type R" - its proven and its the best sportcar you can get."
If if the24h Le mans drove electric cars - what you think? What would use the top teams to charge the batteries? Something unexpensive "popular" and "good enough" charging paralell (and shortening the charing time setting greatet deadband for balancing) - or something without compromises in charging technology?

[Mercuriell]

I have been using my Pulsar 3 for 6 months and my Pulsar Equal for a year. Without a doubt these are superb pieces of gear and I have not used either of my Hyperion chargers since I acquired them. I plan to do a review once I get suitably acquainted with all the massive detail.

[Ivamos]

Hi Mercuriell!
I did start this thread abut Pulsar 3 with " If someone is interested, i am willing to share any experiences with it."
Please feel free, to share the experiences. I have a very good contact with ELPROG, so if there is a need, i can ask them for any technical explanation.

[Mercuriell]

I will share my expeiences more fully when I do a review vid for Finless Tech room but the big pluses for me are:

1) huge discharge and charge capability
2) automatic selection of input voltage between 12-48v
3) huge balance current capability, up to 1A per cell and this is redistributed to lower voltage cells rather than being wasted as heat on discharge
4) extensive charging data which can be recorded on SD or relayed via Blutooth to your mobile
5) simplicity of use

There is no doubt that there is very clever programming with very efficient hardware

My only dislikes are the price, insignificant dealer margin which will prevent any overseas distributor take up and having to solder up the balance boards

Having said that there is excellent service from PP-RC and I think it's good value for the money. If I had bought this unit first I could have saved a lot of money on other chargers which have fallen by the wayside as pack technology changes.

[Ivamos]

PP-RC is the distributor for Germany. For dealer outside Germany certainly have to make more sense to trade directly with Elprog.
Even if i agree, that soldering the balancer adapter boards is not so comfortable for everyone, i did accept it, because this way i can have boards specially designed for my needs.
I still have so many different batterys - balancer outputs from Thunderpower are others than from Graupner and others as by Hyperion. I do not understand why there is no one accepted standard.
This way i can have one balancer board for any brands of my big helicopter 10S and 2x 6S or for 2 x 4S plane batteries and different one for my small indoor stuff charged directly over balancer connectors. I can directly close Thunder Power and Hyperion to the some board without adapters. This is a way more comfortable as universal boards with a half of sockets not needed and mostly all from one standard.

[HSC]

Hello !
I em using this charger for few mounth now and all I need to say, this charger is far,far,far in the future compared to others similar devices on the market.
Now I em able too use 12S stick packs for my TDR with no exstra extensions for balancing, and also have integrated temparature senzors in ewery pack separately soo no exstra wires at all.
Also BT option is great, now i can supervise charging proces in my flatt with my phone.
Charger is two flors lower in my workshop...
And the performance is outstanding specialy 60W balancers.....
Regards

[basing]

Pulsar chargers are very popular by us. A lot of people use it even for small indoor batterys. A small phone photo from this week. As everyone can see, two P2 and three P3 chargers here. Reason for this is - the quality.

[Swiso]

Hi Ivamos,
since I need a new charger, I was looking at the Pulsar 3 and at the new ThunderPower TP1430C charger.
I see that you know very well the Pulsar 3, so, can you take a look at the ThunderPower charger and tell me how it compare to te Pulsar 3 ?
TP is known for very good products.
My fear with the Pulsar is all the soldering job I have to do to make the balancing adapters, to suite all the type of LiPo balancing connectors (XH,EH,TP,HE)...

My Lipo collection range from 2S to 6S.

Thanks !
Best Regards

[Ivamos]

The Thunder Power looks to be a nice charger. I did read only the instruction manual and there a lot of differences between TP and P3.
As i did wrote - P3 makes charging current breaks for measurement the voltage of the cells. This avoid read errors on inner resistance of the cells and let measure the resistance during charging process. By high charging currents - this kind of measurement error is high - so even measuring with 1/1000 of volts is not really usable.
Higher current = higher error. Higher inner resistance = higher error.
Not only for charging - for balancing too.
P3 charging technology makes the charging by high currents much more safer and charged batteries are better balanced. Balancing currents are adjustable up to 1A.
P3 has a large graphic display instead of simple two line text display, SD card slot, advanced computer sotware, wireless bluetooth connection to PC or cell phone, excellent anti spark circuit in the charge output and and and...
It is your decision what all you need or what is important for you. And if its worth the money for you.
I preffer to have more, but simpler balancer boards instead of such a christmas three on it. But if you need so much connectors - you do no need to solder it all by yourself.
You can connect any kind of cheap adapters with anything you needs.
Such an adapter costs 2,95USD.

[Ivamos]

Longer rewiev (five pages) of Pulsar 3 in a german magazine Modell Flieger is now online:
http://magazin.dmfv.aero/theorie-praxis/oberklasse/

It marks the supremacy of the attributes of top quality, high performance and extreme ease of use. The Pulsar 3 shows an appreciation for our hobby. Who uses large packs will not pass him. Of course, such a device is no bargain. But who has met the service and product support from pp-rc/Elprog, recognizes that this investment has been worth even for "day after tomorow"

[tomas120]

Hi Ivamos,
Since I need a new charger, I was looking at the Pulsar 3.
I see that you know very well the Pulsar 3.
Where should I buy it?
My fear with the Pulsar is all the soldering job I have to do to make the balancing adapters, to suite all the type of LiPo and A123 balancing connectors (XH,EH,TP,HE)...
Thanks !
Kind Regards

Originally Posted by Ivamos

Longer rewiev (five pages) of Pulsar 3 in a german magazine Modell Flieger is now online:
http://magazin.dmfv.aero/theorie-praxis/oberklasse/

[tomas120]

Hi,
How I can contact Ivamos, not let me send PM?.
Kind regards,
tomas120

[LookBackTime]

Originally Posted by tomas120

Hi,
How I can contact Ivamos, not let me send PM?.
Kind regards,
tomas120

From Germany:

http://www.pp-rc.de/SHOP/eshoping.htm