Weird throttle glitch

[sutty]

Bad news Jason. My sensor turned up today and I've installed it. No flights as the weather is horrendous here but I've bench tested it at the following settings.

N = 2300
1 = 2350
2 = 2400

Motor poles = 6
Pinion = 18T
Maingear = 188T
Ratio = 10.44r Value entered = 10.4

I tached it using a Turinigy TFT switching optical tach, with the following results.

N = 2289
1 = 2338
2 = 2388

Based on the ratio accuracy or entry error it means the real values should have been 2290, 2340 and 2390 if I work back and my maths is correct, so it's doing a great job of setting the RPM, under no load.

However, here comes the rub with our ESC.

Watch this boring video, or rather listen.



Worst glitching ever. Looks like we need new ESCs, but I suppose we could have guessed that.

Not to worry.

Cheers

Sutty

[Jason Courville]

Thanks sutty,
Well I guess I'm not going to try to use the hobby wing sensor I ordered. I'll just use it on my 450. What brand ESC are you thinking of ?
Jason

[Angelos]

Originally Posted by sutty

Ratio = 10.44r Value entered = 10.4 [...]
Based on the ratio accuracy or entry error it means the real values should have been 2290, 2340 and 2390 if I work back and my maths is correct, so it's doing a great job of setting the RPM, under no load.

Why didn't you program the Vortex with 10.44? I don't have one in front of my right now but I believe the adjustment has two decimal points.

Originally Posted by sutty

Worst glitching ever. Looks like we need new ESCs, but I suppose we could have guessed that.

I really can't decide what to do with that. As we discussed in the past the Analog/ESC output from the Vortex has the exact same frame as Futaba FASST receivers and really I wouldn't expect the Align ESCs not to work correctly if plugged directly to a FASST receiver. Or maybe they don't; maybe we need to test one. I could lower the frame rate even more but at present this causes some headaches with algorithm synchronisation within the Vortex. Also lower the frame rate means that we are sacrificing governing performance for every ESC just for the sake of Align.

The heli ESC manufacturers need to step up their game. 333Hz is now the norm for every digital servo out there. Cheap Chinese multicopter ESC that cost $10-12 can now support 450Hz. And here we the big heli ESC brands that can't cope with anything faster than analog frame rates.

-Angelos

[sutty]

Originally Posted by Jason Courville

Thanks sutty,
Well I guess I'm not going to try to use the hobby wing sensor I ordered. I'll just use it on my 450. What brand ESC are you thinking of ?
Jason

Not considered it yet Jason. Like with most things, until I need to buy, I tend to ignore the details, so right now I know nothing of the current best and good value ESCs. I'll start to look tomorrow and see what people are saying. I'll be looking for a good deal, as I hate to waste money. I can rule out worrying about a good governor though I suppose.

Cheers

Sutty

[sutty]

Originally Posted by Angelos

Why didn't you program the Vortex with 10.44? I don't have one in front of my right now but I believe the adjustment has two decimal points.

Hi Angelos

Sorry, maybe I missed that, but I thought I could only go to 1 decimal place. Either way, it's neither here nor there, and I wasn't complaining, I was saying it did a great job of setting the RPM. I was just showing my numbers, and trying to explain why they weren't nearer. (Just checked and there is 2, I'm just dumb). I've changed it now, so I guess if I did it again I'd be nearer. By the way, I put my hand on the head button to simulate load, and it did a great job of keeping sync with my tach. Not exactly scientific, but it gave me some idea.

Originally Posted by Angelos

I really can't decide what to do with that. As we discussed in the past the Analog/ESC output from the Vortex has the exact same frame as Futaba FASST receivers and really I wouldn't expect the Align ESCs not to work correctly if plugged directly to a FASST receiver. Or maybe they don't; maybe we need to test one. I could lower the frame rate even more but at present this causes some headaches with algorithm synchronisation within the Vortex. Also lower the frame rate means that we are sacrificing governing performance for every ESC just for the sake of Align.

The heli ESC manufacturers need to step up their game. 333Hz is now the norm for every digital servo out there. Cheap Chinese multicopter ESC that cost $10-12 can now support 450Hz. And here we the big heli ESC brands that can't cope with anything faster than analog frame rates.

-Angelos

Thanks for re-visiting this issue. I know we have been over and over this going way back, but it has resurfaced for me because of the wish to try governing, and of course because Jason has brought up the exact same issue. Honestly I'm at a loss too. I totally agree that it should work at the standard Futaba frame rate, makes perfect sense to me, and I don't know for sure that this is the issue, as it has the exact same issue whether it is analogue or not.

Personally I don't think you should make a change to jeopardise the governor behaviour, so I totally get why you are stuck wondering about it. It's a pity that it's difficult in terms of sync to just offer a further option, at a lower frame rate of say 50Hz, even if it were a test firmware just for us to run for you, without governor even, for now, just to see if the glitch goes away, but if there are complexities beyond the obvious, then fair enough.

You're welcome to have my ESC when I get my new one, because as you can see from the video, there is no way to make use of it like that, and I have another exact same one anyway, with the exact same issue, lol. I don't want to send you that one, as I had that one apart to solder a new capacitor on which I ripped off during a close encounter with a tree, so that wouldn't be representative of an original, even though it performs the same. The one that's on it now is as new, so it would be better from your perspective to use that one, if you want it.

As a matter of interest, as you may recall, both work perfectly, glitch free, when run directly from a standard Spektrum Rx, so if that points to the frame rate, so be it.

I won't hang about getting another ESC, as I hate to have a heli that's down, so I can send it right away, especially whilst the weather is bad.

Cheers

Sutty

[Jason Courville]

sutty,
I just watched your video. My ESC only glitches once per flight. I flew today and out of the four flights, only one flight had the glitch I wish we could update the firmware on these two. I've asked a couple guys here on helifreak and they have not had the glitch with the stock RCE-BL70G ESC and vortex. I think you and I got the only two in the world with this bug My 450 has the stock 35 amp align esc and vortex and it has been absolutely flawless. I purchased this 500 ESP kit last year brand new for $391.00, so if I have to replace the ESC, it will be money well spent. Despite this minor issue, I have to say I LOVE my VX1es! I have not had this much confidence in both helis since I went flybarless with Spartan Vortex Thanks Angelos.
Jason

[sutty]

Hi Jason, Mine used to glitch about once per flight. Sometimes once or twice, sometimes never, but on average about once. Also I have another identical ESC that does the same thing, at roughly the same frequency, so we don't have the only two. Perhaps we have the only three, but I somehow doubt that. Maybe we have an older firmware, I couldn't say, and nor do I know how to update it if true, but I guess it's worth having a look to see if it can be done.

It's not easy to spot, but I'm pretty sure the key to why it does it more often in my video is the governed rate. In idle up 1 it only did it once, in idle up 2 it didn't do it at all, but in normal, at 2300 rpm, 2289 as it turned out, it did it several times, once at the start and a few times later on.

I think maybe this goes someway to explain why, if previously, I flew at 100%, none governed of course, it almost completely goes away. Almost literally once in a blue moon at 100% flat. Maybe it also has something to do with that none linear transition that people have reported at around 90% with at least some of the Align ESCs. Who knows, but one thing is for sure, mine, and probably yours, can't be used with the Vortex governor, or perhaps any other governor for that matter.

When you get your sensor, see what happens, before you put it on your other heli. Just jam your leads inside the motor bullets, rather than soldering them, tape it to the heli, and just do a governed test on the bench like I did without any blades. I'd soldered mine, but I mean for you because you are going to put it on your 450, it should do just fine for a test. After having set mine up it took only a few minutes to do the test and find out.

Oh, and I absolutely agree about the Vortex. I love mine too, and have no real issue if I have to get a new ESC to get the best out of it. It's just one of those things.

Cheers

Sutty

[Jason Courville]

Your right sutty, I'll give it a go. The sensor should be here today. Probably won't be able to test until Sunday. Is Mr Mels head speed calculator a good way to estimate the rpms I need to enter for the governor?
Jason

[ahahn]

Originally Posted by sutty

....snip>...

It's not easy to spot, but I'm pretty sure the key to why it does it more often in my video is the governed rate. In idle up 1 it only did it once, in idle up 2 it didn't do it at all, but in normal, at 2300 rpm, 2289 as it turned out, it did it several times, once at the start and a few times later on.

I think maybe this goes someway to explain why, if previously, I flew at 100%, none governed of course, it almost completely goes away. Almost literally once in a blue moon at 100% flat. Maybe it also has something to do with that none linear transition that people have reported at around 90% with at least some of the Align ESCs. Who knows, but one thing is for sure, mine, and probably yours, can't be used with the Vortex governor, or perhaps any other governor for that matter.

...<snip>....

Cheers

Sutty

Sounds more like a funny interaction of the PWM signal the esc is sending to the motor.

Update rate from a receiver throttle signal is the same for any throttle setting of course, but with a 100% throttle input, the PWM duty cycle to the motor is 100%, so there would be no interaction between the PWM duty cycle and commutation for example.

At lower PWM duty cycles, it may be that there is some interference between the ESC tracking the PWM duty cycle and the commutation. I don't know what Align uses for the PWM rate (guess 8kHz but don't know). Maybe occasionally when the PWM update and commutation overlap in time, the ESC misses the commutation feedback signal --for example. This could be sensitive to your motor too. In other words it may be a few things ganging up to give you the glitch. One glitch per flight is a pretty small rate, given the number of throttle and PWM cycles, and motor commutations you have in a typical 3-4 minute flight.

Fortunately the price of ESCs that work reasonable well is pretty low these days.

[sutty]

Thanks for that Ahahn. I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge there though as I have no real idea about the details. What I do know is it works perfectly well when instructed directly from a Spektrum Rx. What I can confirm though is you are vey right about the price of ESCs. I didn't know before, but I've been looking this morning, and have decided to go for the Hobbywing Platinum V3 100A. Sounds like it will do the trick, and some people I know have the 50A version and they are very pleased with them. Seems to have a good BEC too. It's already on its way, if the robot order checker can be believed.

Cheers

Sutty

[ahahn]

Originally Posted by sutty

Thanks for that Ahahn. I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge there though as I have no real idea about the details. What I do know is it works perfectly well when instructed directly from a Spektrum Rx. What I can confirm though is you are vey right about the price of ESCs. I didn't know before, but I've been looking this morning, and have decided to go for the Hobbywing Pentium V3 100A. Sounds like it will do the trick, and some people I know have the 50A version and they are very pleased with them. Seems to have a good BEC too. It's already on its way, if the robot order checker can be believed.

Cheers

Sutty

Of course I have no real knowledge of the hidden workings of the Align ESC, but I can easily imagine that these things may have been developed back in the era that frame rate throttle outputs may have been the norm.There are a number of control loops going on in the ESC firmware and just maybe there is some type of subtle timing issue there.

[Jason Courville]

sutty, can you give me a link to that esc? There is a Hobbywing dealer here in the states that has a Platinum 100 amp V3. Is it the same thing?
Jason

[sutty]

Hi Jason

Sorry I meant that. I've edited the post now to show the correct name.

Link

Oh, and by the way, I've never used Mr Mels HS calculator, but I have read and been told that it is pretty good.

Cheers

Sutty

[Jason Courville]

sutty, I looked at that ESC as well. the only thing that confused me about it was that it had a servo lead to plug into the ESC port and a BEC two wire lead also. I only have a six channel rx and was wondering how to handle the wiring situation. Are you going to get the programming box also?

Jason

[Pionwave]

The hwing platinum v3 100A & 50A's are really good esc's.

Use the 100A-v3 on my Gob 500, never had a problem. Haven't had the chance to try e-gov on it yet, just doing it on my chase 360 for the moment

[Jason Courville]

Thanks for that Pionwave. I also like the idea of having the 10 amp BEC.
Jason

[Jason Courville]

Well, I received a bonus at work today, and decided not to mess around with this ESC anymore . I've ordered the Hobbywing 100 amp V3 ESC and multi function programming box. It allows me to do field programming and has a lipo checker which I needed. Since Pionwave is using it on his Goblin with Vortex we should be good to go

Jason

[sutty]

Hi Jason

Happy to hear about your bonus.

I didn't go with the programming tool, as it said it was optional. I considered that I would only need to extract basic functionality from the ESC, and since it said it was an optional extra I assumed I could manage without it. If I'm wrong in this assumption, no big deal, I'll pick one up later.

Also I didn't give a great deal of thought about how it would connect. I assumed it's an ESC like any other, and will be able to be used. If there are two leads to make use of from the BEC, then I see that as a bonus, and if I can I'll find a way to use both. One to the VX1 Pro, and one to the datapod perhaps, if I am short of places to put it. I didn't worry about it as I only have one lead at the moment, and it's from the much less capable BEC from the Align ESC, so even with one from the HW BEC I'm sure it will be fine. If I can connect them both, which I think I can, then all the better.

Glad to hear confirmation from Pionwave that it's working well for him. I think we're going to be happy with it.

Cheers

Sutty

[Jason Courville]

Hello and Thanks Sutty,
I contacted ragge1 from this forum about the Hobbywing ESC we're about to receive. He had one on a Trex 500. He just made a custom three lead splitter do deal with the extra BEC plug. I have a Y-connector on hand, so I'm set. I should get mine next week so my 500 will be grounded until it comes in. No need to risk my bird, I'll just fly my 450. I agree, I think this ESC will be a better fit with our birds and Vortex

Best Regards, Jason

[Pionwave]

I wasn't able to get my fan installed with my 100A -V3 on the gob 500, if you get it in there let me know.

It comes down hot after a hard flight, and I do 6 flights basically back to back and it doesn't skip a beat. Have approx ~80 flights.

Having the field programmer with lipo checking is actually VERY helpful, gives you a rough guess as to how much you have pulled from your batts.