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Old 01-10-2017, 02:13 PM   #1
gunny_jeeves
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Default Tension Breaker - Had to be done... (Rant thread)

So like many, I still absolutely love my Mostro.

I know it is a little as one crash away from the garbage can, but that doesn't mean I like it.

Lets talk about leaps of faith.

Leap 1 - Folks bought these helis and love em. (First runs being what they are, not everyone was thrilled, but problems got addressed)

Leap 2 - Many resellers carried them. (True most all of them got burned.)

Leap 3 - Now its a dead company, dead product.... Yet like the 1955 Chevy Nomad, parts availability does not stop someone truly happy with their Mostro.

Now here's the rant.

Supposedly Carbonextreme has some parts, or has some way of getting some, or has something that would be very valuable to US...

I can't imagine that Carbonextreme has not thought to post on here with a good description of what their state is. I mean if they said they had a good supply of most parts, they could speed things up and actually recoup some revenue. Why would they not post here? (I don't buy that a Heli Vendor does NOT know Helifreak...)

I of course still want to know what happened to the company. (Mainly due to Intellectual Property.) If there is no company ownership, no one is able to push IP ownership... If a bank now owns Avant, they might take $100 for the IP / prints / cad files... (Its $100 they didn't have earlier... and people are not just lining up to make higher offers than that.) So someone could obtain the IP.

If someone obtained the IP, a quick call to China, or to a couple other places stateside, and parts, even kits, can be reproduced. (My guess, making most of the folks on this thread happy.)

If I obtained the IP, I'm the type that would make it open source, post it here, and give it to everyone. I think it would rise from the ashes to some degree there too.
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:08 PM   #2
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I still do not believe carbon xtreme is a separate company if it was they would be bending over backwards to sell what they have. Agusto always said they were the factory shop so where did they have nothing avant rc come from?
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:31 PM   #3
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I can tell you with 99% certainty that it is a separate company. Why they and Avant were/are so poor in communication I can't say. My understanding is that they were personal friends of Augusto. My guess is that they keep things quiet so they don't get caught up in the fracas. It is a side business for them, and I'm sure they are not happy about the situation either.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:44 PM   #4
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That all makes sense, but the fact is that there are folks that fall into more than one bucket out here.

"It's dead, screw it, I'm done" - No one at avant or CX should care about these guys, and granted, that's most of the old customer base.

"Mine still flies and I'm gonna fly it!" - This is my camp. I also know I'm not alone. Avant being dead, CX should reach out to us to let us know the difference between: I can provide only a few remaining parts, or I can produce, though slowly, any parts you need.

So someone has the IP. (Probably the bank that grabbed up assets to Avant) it's likely they do not value the IP at all, but if someone used it, they would come after you. So best would be to find that IP and get it that way.

Most parts that wear can be sourced directly from belt, pulley etc manufacturers. Some can be swapped in from other kits like RJX or Goblin. If someone has the IP, they could put it to use and like Minicopter, I think this would rise again. (Either as a DIY effort or another MFG.)
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by gunny_jeeves View Post
That all makes sense, but the fact is that there are folks that fall into more than one bucket out here.

"It's dead, screw it, I'm done" - No one at avant or CX should care about these guys, and granted, that's most of the old customer base.

"Mine still flies and I'm gonna fly it!" - This is my camp. I also know I'm not alone. Avant being dead, CX should reach out to us to let us know the difference between: I can provide only a few remaining parts, or I can produce, though slowly, any parts you need.

So someone has the IP. (Probably the bank that grabbed up assets to Avant) it's likely they do not value the IP at all, but if someone used it, they would come after you. So best would be to find that IP and get it that way.

Most parts that wear can be sourced directly from belt, pulley etc manufacturers. Some can be swapped in from other kits like RJX or Goblin. If someone has the IP, they could put it to use and like Minicopter, I think this would rise again. (Either as a DIY effort or another MFG.)
I don't believe new parts are being produced, at least not any that require machine work. I don't believe we will get answers. The parts will come until they don't come anymore, and that will be the end. In the mean time we can try and make due. I'm hoping down the road things like 3D printers will make it easier to have parts made "on demand". The Heli is not the expensive part in the scope of things. Once my parts are extinguished, I'll find something else. I own a number of orphans. So far they are all still flying.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:17 PM   #6
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99% sure means you dont know really. I spoke to agusto on quite a few occasions over the years and he said they were the factory shop. what ever that means. i cannot believe that a company that has spares like they do would not be better at selling than they are. i still have my mostro and fly it now and again the heli is very good but to say its supported is wrong cx are terrible and can take months to send out bits if ever
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:16 PM   #7
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FWIW, I actually had a conversation with Augusto about this. It was in the context of many other details, so unless he made something up (which is possible), that it my understanding. I got a quite extensive backstory, so I don't believe it was made up.
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:56 PM   #8
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I asked that question directly some time ago and they replied that they were 100% not the same company. They told me CX belongs to a a wife's relative hence the close relationship they had.

Regarding intellectual property, I've seen mistaken post here about abandoned intellectual property but they don't understand that for an intellectual property such as designs to be abandoned the intellectual property owner has to actually in writing relinquish his rights to it. So as long as they don't make it open source or relinquish their rights to it in writing publicly it's still protected intellectual designs.

That's not the same with a trademark which is considered abandoned if not used at all in three years or if doesn't fight or complains for infringement for 10 years but if there is any use such as the mere existence of a website with the trademark, logo, etc the trademark is considered in use nod not abandoned. In this case the avant website is still in use so it's trademarks and logos are not abandoned.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:01 PM   #9
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I asked that question directly some time ago and they replied that they were 100% not the same company. They told me CX belongs to a a wife's relative hence the close relationship they had.

Regarding intellectual property, I've seen mistaken post here about abandoned intellectual property but they don't understand that for an intellectual property such as designs to be abandoned the intellectual property owner has to actually in writing relinquish his rights to it. So as long as they don't make it open source or relinquish their rights to it in writing publicly it's still protected intellectual designs.

That's not the same with a trademark which is considered abandoned if not used at all in three years or if doesn't fight or complains for infringement for 10 years but if there is any use such as the mere existence of a website with the trademark, logo, etc the trademark is considered in use nod not abandoned. In this case the avant website is still in use so it's trademarks and logos are not abandoned.
That's dead on correct!

But who owns the IP?

Simple. Avant does.

Avant is dead, so who owns it now? The bank they died owing money to....

How to find that bank? Really 2 options.
1. Screw em, reverse engineer it, obtain the IP, and do your thing... (they'll find you)
2. Or find out the bank who owns Avant's assets or debt.

Once you find them, they will likely agree to sell the IP to you for nearly nothing. Or if they own it but don't actually have it (ex bank owns all assets legally in the form of unpaid debt, but does not have the data on a disk somewhere....) If you offered them $10 to agree that you now own the IP, offer another $90 payable if the actual IP shows up to hand it over to you, then you own the IP. (Even if you have to make your masters from reverse engineering)

Only chance of no bank owning the IP? If Augusto kept it legally separate or if Avant closed with zero debt.

Let's look at DT helis. They were awesome, cheap, great flying helis poised to do really good things. While lots of people like them, their IP would not yield as much opportunity. (Lower scale would mean higher price, deterring most DT fans...)

Avant helis are beasts. Their IP would be valuable to the community, could be very lucrative to a home-based hobbyist type boutique heli business, and may even be valuable to a larger scale offshore company like ALZRC or GARTT to build.

Like Alienware is to Dell, this IP could be to another established vendor.

I think the IP is within reach.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:04 PM   #10
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99% sure means you dont know really. I spoke to agusto on quite a few occasions over the years and he said they were the factory shop. what ever that means. i cannot believe that a company that has spares like they do would not be better at selling than they are. i still have my mostro and fly it now and again the heli is very good but to say its supported is wrong cx are terrible and can take months to send out bits if ever
I'm hoping he meant "factory shop" as in they could produce at least some of the parts.

That means they have most of that IP on hand, as well as permission to use it.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:35 PM   #11
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From conversations I had with them via email at the time there was no bank debt. Also banks normally usually use real assets for collateral not intellectual property unless it's a large company like apple. They were always very communicative via email and for years they couldn't care less about forums so probably nothing it's said here will ever get to them.

It's kind of funny how people act as if someone else's work is something they have some sort of a right or say on. It sounds to me like a pretty liberal and socialist attitude of disrespect to private property and snowflakes rants. It's their property created by them and they can decide what to do with it. If they decide not to release anything and make nothing open source or public it's their right to do so.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FBLessOne View Post
From conversations I had with them via email at the time there was no bank debt. Also banks normally usually use real assets for collateral not intellectual property unless it's a large company like apple. They were always very communicative via email and for years they couldn't care less about forums so probably nothing it's said here will ever get to them.

It's kind of funny how people act as if someone else's work is something they have some sort of a right or say on. It sounds to me like a pretty liberal and socialist attitude of disrespect to private property and snowflakes rants. It's their property created by them and they can decide what to do with it. If they decide not to release anything and make nothing open source or public it's their right to do so.
If you have the money, you can purchase the IP. The problem is the market stick and boom heli market is stinko, so unless you have time and money to burn, you are better off just moving on. The name has been somewhat trashed by how they have done business and poor communication. So while it's possible to bring Avant back, it is not very likely. If you have the resources, you would probably be better off replicating the design with enough changes to make a legal "clone" of sorts. It's a matter of whether you think the design work done is worth the value of the IP. When big established players are exiting the market, you really have to think hard about jumping in. I wish the situation was different.

I really think there is a market for someone like lynx to make replacement parts for these orphan helis. But you need to be in the business with your capital and tools established to make it worthwhile.
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