Lockout/Brownout Problems - Static is a #1 issue

[fireup]

Ok, one more video added. This one just mainly show the static in the main gear and that it transfers to the head. When I touch the main shaft. The charge stored in the head bleeds out to my body.

[Finless]

Nice data dude......

But my .3 cents... I still don't like that the ENTIRE tail system is isolated form the frame and the electronics. Boom storage or not. I feel it is still a good idea to ground the boom to the frame just to be sure. The heli in the air is different than on the bench and it certainly cannot hurt to make sure the entire heli system is all connected and thus all PARTS are at the same potential.

So as I said long ago... Connect the tail rotor output shaft to the boom
Connect to the boom to the frame.
Connect the front tail drive shaft to the frame

This makes sure that ALL the moving parts at least move their possible potential to the frame.

Oh and even though Aberdeen's noise fix for the ESC seems NOT to be the real issue/cause, we DO need to make sure our electronics ground shares the same connection to the frame so that it also is not isolated. So run the neg side of the batt to the frame as well.

All vehicles that travel (cars, aircraft, etc) for the last 60+ years have a common ground reference. The FRAME body.... A RC Heli should be no different.

Bob

[Astennu]

Originally Posted by Finless

Nice data dude......

But my .3 cents... I still don't like that the ENTIRE tail system is isolated form the frame and the electronics. Boom storage or not. I feel it is still a good idea to ground the boom to the frame just to be sure. The heli in the air is different than on the bench and it certainly cannot hurt to make sure the entire heli system is all connected and thus all PARTS are at the same potential.

So as I said long ago... Connect the tail rotor output shaft to the boom
Connect to the boom to the frame.
Connect the front tail drive shaft to the frame

This makes sure that ALL the moving parts at least move their possible potential to the frame.

Oh and even though Aberdeen's noise fix for the ESC seems NOT to be the real issue/cause, we DO need to make sure our electronics ground shares the same connection to the frame so that it also is not isolated. So run the neg side of the batt to the frame as well.

All vehicles that travel (cars, aircraft, etc) for the last 60+ years have a common ground reference. The FRAME body.... A RC Heli should be no different.

Bob

Maybe its a stupid question but does CF transfer the current ? Because i was thinking of a wire construction because i thought the CF would not conduct the current.

And to get the charge of the main rotor the metal bearing blocks can help right ? (with a extra wire to the negative of the ESC)

Please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm reading a lot of info on this problem lately and i might mix up a few things

[Finless]

CF is "carbon" fiber. Carbon is a GREAT conductor and in many ways far better than copper wire!

Yes CF conducts. Fiber glass (GF) on the other hand is a great insulator.

Bob

[mk1spitfire]

All this testing....!

Isn't this something Align should have done?

[jurassic5]

Originally Posted by mk1spitfire

All this testing....!

Isn't this something Align should have done?

I assume that they cannot test everything before putting out an heli ... especially when everything is driven by BUSINESS.

Business means money, means pulling out a nice 500 heli in christmas time.... this is all about the money, maybe that's todays world.

I just think that even if it's true, customers are not beta testers, especially when helis are sold on the real market. Sanding a canopy ... is just easy but MUST NOT BEEN DONE by a customer. It's like buying a bike... and sanding the wheels.. WTF.

A shame that no communication has been done on this by Align. They should have released the TREX500 later... and giving the heli world the impression that they are not driven by money.

I presume they are all great guys trying their best, but it's not enough. Heli flyers improving their helis.. is GREAT; that what this helifreak forum is about.... lots of friendship and profesionnalism... But at this point, we are not improving the TREX500 like resizing or putting nice colors in your windows vista environment..... we are just pulling out a service pack 2 for the Trex500... Sucks.

Just my opinion.

Cédric

[raylepper]

Cédric,
I hear you. But personally I find this is a lot more interesting than painting canopies and putting lights on rotor blades. It's a new level of challenge to understand the machines we are flying (as if just flying wasn't hard enough ). We are no longer passive customers—at the level of expertise demonstrated by some of the people on this forum, we are collaborators in the design, engineering, and manufacture. Waaay cool I think.
Clearly, just my opinion.
Ray

[jurassic5]

Originally Posted by raylepper

Cédric,
I hear you. But personally I find this is a lot more interesting than painting canopies and putting lights on rotor blades. It's a new level of challenge to understand the machines we are flying (as if just flying wasn't hard enough ). We are no longer passive customers—at the level of expertise demonstrated by some of the people on this forum, we are collaborators in the design, engineering, and manufacture. Waaay cool I think.
Clearly, just my opinion.
Ray

Hi Ray,

I fully agree with you. Just weird that Align is not communicating on this.

Cédric

[JC]

Originally Posted by jurassic5

Hi Ray,

I fully agree with you. Just weird that Align is not communicating on this.

Cédric

Oh I bet they are... within the company. Think about it, there really isn't anything conclusive yet. These guys out here in the field are doing a great job zeroing in on what the problem(s) is/are, but for Align to jump into the fray publicly before there is anything concrete, I think would be silly for them.

[Socal500]

Ok on my ungrounded heli I get no static on the spinning head. Im not saying this is the case in the video but I have noticed with these probes that the surrounding can greatly effect the outcome. Any AC source for sure. I was testing a boom before recording and getting nothing. I then held my camcorder, which was plugged into AC, in my other hand and got a reading and the camera was arms length away so it had to be going through me. So anything and everyting sitting near or around the heli could be adding to this including your hands.

We still need a way to measure the actual voltage. You apparently, even though in the same region as me, are in a much more static rich environment that I am. I saw an instrument online that is specifially made for measuring static voltage but since nobody has chimed in obviously nobody has one.

So is the probe you modified limiting your reading? There must be a way to increase the range so we can see whats really there.

[Astennu]

Originally Posted by Finless

CF is "carbon" fiber. Carbon is a GREAT conductor and in many ways far better than copper wire!

Yes CF conducts. Fiber glass (GF) on the other hand is a great insulator.

Bob

Ah thanks for the info. But if i remember correctly the CF frame has 3 layers. 1:plastic or some kind of protection ? 2: the real CF ? and 3: the protection again.

So if i want to ground my boom to the frame i need to scratch the isolation away ?

Can someone here please post pictures of there frame grounding mod ?

[raylepper]

Originally Posted by jurassic5

Hi Ray,

I fully agree with you. Just weird that Align is not communicating on this.

Cédric

Maybe they're waiting for us to determine the answer.
And unless they have the answer 100% nailed, I agree with JC, anything less that a definitive response would be adding fuel to the fire.

So we better stay busy if we want them to give us the solution we find anytime soon.

[BlackTitanium]

Originally Posted by Astennu

Can someone here please post pictures of there frame grounding mod ?

The CF frame is grounded to the ESC negative wire at the motor mount.
You could then attach the tail boom ground wire to any part of the CF frame.
I prefer to mount the tail boom ground strap on the motor mount also.

[mk1spitfire]

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Is the static voltage build up in the belt DC voltage??

Could this be why these electrostatic voltage detector sticks do not pick up the belt voltage as they are generally designed for AC voltage and in effect hiding something more serious.??

Mk1

[mk1spitfire]

Lubricatting the main shaft with oil is no more of a band aid than using conductive spray between the belt and the pullies to help bleed off static build up at the very source of electro generation.

Both are areas of maintanace but accept they are not permanent but that is why planned maintance works.

Mk1

[ChasHeliCop]

Purely speculation, but my guess the voltage detectors are picking up the transfer of positive(+) or negative(-) charged particles being transferred from one surface to another. But like I said it's purely a guess, what matters to me is that you can actually see it with the detectors verses just saying it's there. Everyone I have seen post results have shown enough controls to authenicate the results, especially Fireup who has done an outstanding job for everyone.

[helis101]

I have the metal tail case, to ground the boom all i have to do is sand the coating off the end of the boom? Is this correct or do i have to ground the gear box to in the front to the frame also?

[mk1spitfire]

Yes, fireup work is great.

I am an electrician. I use these sticks all the time. They have even saved my life. They are a great source of identification of electrostatic build up. That is how they work.

However they can give false readings and I personally do not trust them and always use a proper volt meter to double check.

As you have seen they can lite up rubbing on your arm gently. Even though they say 50- 500v often that is misleading to think that rubbing on your arm is generating a minimum of 50v. I don't think so.

I have tried my 'FLUKE' voltage stick and yes have found it lites on the gears also.

Likewise on the tail.

So what if it does lite.??

I mean, like I said I believe these only operate on ac voltage. The tail blades must be pulsing it. The rubbing on your arm I have no idea or the gears.


I would like a voltage measurement from the belt where much larger charges may occur unless its an acculuative build of charge solely from the tail blades or both induced into the metal boom

Mk1

[fogger]

The carbon fibers are conductive, but remember they are completely encapsulated in epoxy resin, which is an insulator. So the carbon parts are not going to conduct voltage in the common sense of conducting like wires. The static charge builds up on the surface of the parts, especially on insulators like the epoxy surface of carbon fiber parts, and plastic parts like the boom clamp and tail case. It can reach thousands of volts quickly, but when it discharges the currents are extremely small.

It should be quite easy to build a static charge on your skin / clothing of tens of thousands of volts just by shuffling your feet on the carpet...

The dielectric strength of air is typically taken to be 3kV per mm, depending on humidity etc... So to get a spark through 1/4" of air you need about 9525V... I see sparks that long all the time when I get out of my car and touch the door to close it on a dry day, here in Phoenix...

-Fog

[mk1spitfire]

I had mentioned before of insulating the exposed tips of the aerials with heat shrink to stop any arcing that may jump down a misplaced reciever.

Mk1