fitting FBL units for TDR-II & TDS

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by abanihani

Me too, that is just genius and I never heard of that before. Using the bolt as in the photo you can just rotate the arm and have as much pitch as you want

That's true and it's possible that in a crash they will move vs. breaking the main grip arm and there is also less concern over main grip link turn buckles. So those are all good things!

However this means that you wouldn't be able to switch back and forth between 3D and Speed just by changing FBL banks like you can with the Banshee which means that you would need to decide ahead of time how you wanted to fly it at the airfield so you could have your blades set properly.

Maybe I'm talking out of complete ignorance, but I have always flown symetrical pitch so I really have no reference point for flying without symetrical pitch and the though of it scares me a bit. Then again when you are really flying speed hard core there are a lot of areas I haven't gone into yet.

[EEngineer]

The VBar silverline FBL won't work?

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

The VBar silverline FBL won't work?

How is the VBar set for controlling a servo like landing gear?

Does your reciever allow you to drive a servo from the TX directly while still talking to the VBar ?

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by mkovalcson

How is the VBar set for controlling a servo like landing gear?

Does your reciever allow you to drive a servo from the TX directly while still talking to the VBar ?

Easy, you can use a. 3 or 8 Ch Futaba receiver linked by SBUs to VBAR and then use the Rx channels to drive throttle (my preference) and servos such as landing gear which can be programmed for delay or transit time from the Tx.

Might be a problem with Spektrum satellites off a VBAR!

[marcosp]

As for limited setup to swap between speed or 3D I don't mind in the TDS which is a dedicated speed machine. Maybe the TDRII doesn't have this system since most of us will be flying 3D with it. Or maybe adjustable blade grips are an option for TDRII at time of shipping confirmation.

Does anyone know the reason for the DFC type links? Other than the twist to reduce the fuse opening at the top I don't see any benefit and I do know of the serious DFC cons. I deduce it's an almost 100% rigid head where these cons are mitigated but, why?!?

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

Easy, you can use a. 3 or 8 Ch Futaba receiver linked by SBUs to VBAR and then use the Rx channels to drive throttle (my preference) and servos such as landing gear which can be programmed for delay or transit time from the Tx.

Might be a problem with Spektrum satellites off a VBAR!

Mk,

At this time, my RXs are 2 JR DSMXs.....so I can't plug a servo into my RX....
Nor, into a MiniV....

But, a VBar silverline has "Channel 4" input, as you know.

.................................................. ..

Mercuriell,

I've used many types of retract servos on planks.....90's or 180's...depending.

So.....

Would I need a 90 or 180 servo for the Henseleit retract system?

And, would I be able to configure the "channel 4" VBar servo input to control the
retract system...as you are able to do with a Futaba RX?

All it is...is....up or down....full one way/full the other way....

In addition, what is the torque required to cycle the Henseleit retract system?

With mechanical plank retracts, significant torque was required, as was an 180 servo.

Thanks for any data...

[belgoheli]

Originally Posted by marcosp

As for limited setup to swap between speed or 3D I don't mind in the TDS which is a dedicated speed machine. Maybe the TDRII doesn't have this system since most of us will be flying 3D with it. Or maybe adjustable blade grips are an option for TDRII at time of shipping confirmation.

Does anyone know the reason for the DFC type links? Other than the twist to reduce the fuse opening at the top I don't see any benefit and I do know of the serious DFC cons. I deduce it's an almost 100% rigid head where these cons are mitigated but, why?!?

Hi Marcos,

As far as I recall from the presentation @ Rotor Live, there are no dampers so the head is fully rigid. Jan did not explain the reason for going DFC; perhaps it has to do with lack of space to fiddle in 3 link guides


Regards,

Belgo

[Vinger]

The traditional mast and swash driver creates a lot of drag, so getting the pushrods close to main shaft to present as small as possible area to airflow was his aim and the DFC type links worked for that.

[Mercuriell]

Originally Posted by EEngineer

.................................................. ..

Mercuriell,

I've used many types of retract servos on planks.....90's or 180's...depending.

So.....

Would I need a 90 or 180 servo for the Henseleit retract system?

And, would I be able to configure the "channel 4" VBar servo input to control the
retract system...as you are able to do with a Futaba RX?

All it is...is....up or down....full one way/full the other way....

In addition, what is the torque required to cycle the Henseleit retract system?

With mechanical plank retracts, significant torque was required, as was an 180 servo.

Thanks for any data...

Don't think there is any data at the moment EE, can't even figure the function of the retracts from the pics apart from an ident locking lever and forward retracting. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, certainly very complex mechanism and I am not sure of the benefit over the wire u/c used so far. Maybe we need a landing cradle and no u/c at all, bit like the ME 163!

[EEngineer]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

Don't think there is any data at the moment EE, can't even figure the function of the retracts from the pics apart from an ident locking lever and forward retracting. Guess we'll just have to wait and see, certainly very complex mechanism and I am not sure of the benefit over the wire u/c used so far. Maybe we need a landing cradle and no u/c at all, bit like the ME 163!

ME163....good one...

Have you ever flown "control line speed"?

We used takeoff cradles just like that....called them dolly's.

But when you land, it's always a "belly scraper".

With a heli, on landing, it would always be a "tip scraper".....

As you said, we'll have to wait and see.

But I have a VBar silverline servo "slot" with the retract servo's
name on it....

[marcosp]

Originally Posted by Vinger

The traditional mast and swash driver creates a lot of drag, so getting the pushrods close to main shaft to present as small as possible area to airflow was his aim and the DFC type links worked for that.

I can live with that!

[belgoheli]

Originally Posted by marcosp

I can live with that!

Hi Marcos,

I am sure you could live with any other answer as well, wouldn't you ?
Cheers,

Belgo

P.s. I guess despite all our comments in this thread, I see no reason why Jan would change one single bit. Nor would I if I were Jan.....

[CyprusFlyer]

Guys, dont forget that the full size VBar does have the facility for an extra output for Nitro governors (AUX2), the Mini Vbar output can also be got at by a small modification to the backup file then reloaded. Ideal for switching retracs then

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by belgoheli

P.s. I guess despite all our comments in this thread, I see no reason why Jan would change one single bit. Nor would I if I were Jan.....

There is always going to be speculation about something new and Jan is a brilliant guy who has probably thought about these issues more than all of us combined!

I was originally concerned about how hot it gets under that canopy given how absolutely stuffed it is in there, however having the motor in the back should help with this quite a bit. It looks like the air will be sucked in through the small opening in the top and be drawn out the bottom by the motor.

I just wonder what it would be like to live with this heli at the airfield. How will the stilted landing gear hold up to wobble on spin up. How would these landing gear handle an emergency auto. How hard is it to get the canopy on and off. Basically how enjoyable will it be to fly. I think fixed landing gear would eliminate most of my misgivings and I think personally I would get both fixed and retractable landing gear and start out with fixed gear until I was comfortable with everything else.

[CyprusFlyer]

One thing is for sure for Auto's, you will have to flare off all forward speed, no chance of skidding along the ground if you dont get it quite right. But best wait for it to appear on the market and let the brave and impatient iron out the characteristics.

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by CyprusFlyer

One thing is for sure for Auto's, you will have to flare off all forward speed, no chance of skidding along the ground if you dont get it quite right. But best wait for it to appear on the market and let the brave and impatient iron out the characteristics.

Many are comparing the retractable landing gear to wire skids on full fuse helis.

That is actually a sensible comparison, because anyone who isn't competively flying speed doesn't need retractable landing gear and can use the fixed landing gear which accounts for the majority of the 2500+ TDR's out there.

There are probably less than 100 full fuse helis with wire skids at this point.

It is wrong to look at this heli and think of retracts for the masses. They have a real cool factor about them, but they are just not a good match for most of us.

If you are really pushing the speed envelope than you are already pushing your heli to the limit and retracts are just a natural choice in the quest for top speed.

[Mercuriell]

I think sliding autos is asking for trouble in these speed helis. The rigid heads mean that ground oscillations occur very easily as the HS drops, get the thing on the ground, zero pitch and let the HS bleed off IMHO !

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

I think sliding autos is asking for trouble in these speed helis. The rigid heads mean that ground oscillations occur very easily as the HS drops, get the thing on the ground, zero pitch and let the HS bleed off IMHO !

I guess the TDR-II is a speed heli and the only possible way to look at it and call it a 3D heli is in comparison to the TDS.

I know Jan has people lining up for both the TDS and TDR-II right now, but I wonder what the demand will be long term. If there are say around 100 full fuse helis out right now with many in the hands of the same people who will own the new TDR's, how big an audience is that?

I think speed flying is growing, but is it growing fast enough to create ongoing demand?

[Mercuriell]

I think he will be very fortunate to have even a fraction of the success of the TDR IMHO. I think the 700 market is saturated and the niche occupied by speed freaks is already well supplied, how many speed helis can one have. They are so demanding of attention and maintenance only 1 or at most 2 can really be looked after ...

There doesn't seem to be a steady ingress either of folk from the smaller sizes, many seem to stick at 550, enjoying the economy of 6S packs and cheaper blades ....

[mkovalcson]

Originally Posted by Mercuriell

I think he will be very fortunate to have even a fraction of the success of the TDR IMHO. I think the 700 market is saturated and the niche occupied by speed freaks is already well supplied, how many speed helis can one have. They are so demanding of attention and maintenance only 1 or at most 2 can really be looked after ...

There doesn't seem to be a steady ingress either of folk from the smaller sizes, many seem to stick at 550, enjoying the economy of 6S packs and cheaper blades ....

I would have though this hobby was growing pretty quickly and that because of sheer numbers that there would be a growing base of 700 series owners.

Do you have any statistics to draw from ?

There are a number of decent 700's out there that would work for most uses. Henseleit has a name that is grounded in speed flying. Maybe embracing that difference and really focusing on that makes financial sense.

Back to your comment on 6S. I'm looking to add a Logo 550SE running 6S and 600mm to my fleet next, so there is something to be said for the simplicity of charging a single pack. I say that even though I have two PL8's and can charge 10 batteries at a time right now.