+12 -12 with 12 cyclic, binding?

[XSTAR]

Is it normal to have binding with this set amount of pitch and cyclic? They say 14 is max but I have significant binding at 12.

[Blink 182]

Binding with your stick in the corner or binding with only 1 cyclic input?

[XSTAR]

Binding at corners when I go up and down.

[f22warzone]

corners is ok, as that is what a cyclic ring is for, on the tx or in the vbar/sk720 sw

now if your binding full up collective and say full down pitch then that is bad

[XSTAR]

No binding just level straight up and down.

[aralan]

What are you binding against? I have 14 degrees collective and set my cyclic limit as far as I can without the swash getting too far off of the ball and there's no binding

[XSTAR]

I believe it's just the servos at their limits.

[K2Freak]

This is sorta hard to track. Are you talking about binding in the corners, as in the linkages start to rub and or hit things that they shouldn't when the rotor head rotates? Or are you talking about something going on with the servos? Is the FBL? In that case, you should be able to get massive pitch (both cyclic and collective) without any binding.

More info?

[XSTAR]

It's a fbl, nothing is hitting it's just servos in the +12 and -12 corners at there limits.

[K2Freak]

Stock servos? Do you have 11.5 mm (+/-) from servo screw to center of ball on all the servo wheels? Factory provided wheels want to be installed with the balls on the inner holes.

Travel set to 100%? Dual rates on somehow? Limited pitch curves? Any other reason that this could be a programming artifact?

[XSTAR]

Stock align servos and metal horns on inner holes, everything 90 with no sub trim, all travel adj are 100 100. Pitch curves are all 0-25-50-75-100 except normal mode 43-47-50-75-100 to have -2 at low stick to land the heli.

The only thing I'm hoping is that I set for max travel but in 3G at default rates it won't reach those flip and roll degrees of 12.

[K2Freak]

in 3G at default rates

Huh? Not sure what this means. How did DIR mode setup go? I trust you understand that DIR is not optional.

[XSTAR]

When you connect your 3G to pc default rate is 70, I just hope that at 70 there won't be any binding.

I would think that setting up in dir mode for 12 cyclic that 12 degrees of roll an flip would only happen if on pc you adjust the 3G aile and elev to 100.

[K2Freak]

I'm not sure binding is the work you are looking for. I think you are describing abbreviated throws, or travel that stops short of where you want it to, right?

You don't set the throws in 3G. That may be where your confusion lies. The 70 you see in 3G software (I think) is a control (travel) RATE - think degrees of movement per second - NOT A THROW OR END POINT. In DIR mode you teach 3G where the end points are. That is, you let it travel as far as it can so that it learns how much throw it has to work with. It MUST know the extreme endpoints of the travel range. THIS PART IS SEPARATE FROM WHERE YOU SET UP YOUR COLLECTIVE AND CYCLIC THROWS! IT IS CRITICAL TO RUN DIR MODE CORRECTLY.

Your radio sounds like it is set up correctly for this, except for maybe the swash mixes for collective and cyclic. It's called swash AFR in Futaba. No idea in JR/spectrum. Once DIR mode is complete, THEN you go into your radio and set your swash mixes. THIS IS WHERE the cyclic and collective throws are set up. You will reduce your collective until it is about +/-12-13 degrees and you can set your cyclic to what feels comfortable. 12 degrees of cyclic is a LOT unless you really rip up the air. I recommend starting with 9 or 10 and even with that have an extra pair of shorts in your car. 8^)

You would be well advised to post 3G questions in the 3G forum, as that forum specializes in answering this type of query. The answer will be the same as what I just said though. 8^) https://www.helifreak.com/forumdisplay.php?f=222

-- One more thing. With the radio OFF, move the swash through it;s range and measure your pitch. You should have at least +/- 16 degrees collective. If not, then there may be something wrong other than 3G setup.

PM me if you are not copying what I am saying here...

[XSTAR]

Thanks for all that, from what I understand is you never dial down your swash mixes after setting up dir mode, you dial down in the software and leave the did mode at max for it's correcting. Dialing in the 3G unit itself leaves a higher res command then doing it on your radio. On a flybar heli you do it on the radio.

[K2Freak]

Where did you get this idea? I am always open to new approaches, but I have never heard of this (with the 3G) and don't think it works conceptually.

You can dial down the CONTROL RATE in the software, but 3G needs to know your full pitch range. If you do not let it see everything that the heli can deliver mechanically you will be cheating yourself when it needs to make hard corrections. Wind for example.

Check this 3G setup video out:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3c8nCiATkI[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjnOpexd28g[/ame]

Again, you might post this to the 3G forum as well.

[petter268]

I havent a gauge, but is it to much positive and negative when I have the swash all the way down, and all the way up? I use the whole main shaft when I go from full negative to full postive.

[K2Freak]

On mine that is about +/- 18-20 degrees. Nothing out there will turn that, electric, nitro, or cold fusion. 8^)

But what the OP (and anyone using 3G) needs to do is to get the max throw available out of the heli for setup and then let DIR mode show 3G how much travel it has to work with to achieve the rates that you set up. After that you go into the radio and set "responsible" curves and control response.

Remember - with 3G FBL (and all the others that I am familiar with) you don't set throws, you set response rates.

[XSTAR]

LOOK AT THE LAST PART IN RED ABOUT LEAVING SWASH VALUES AND ADJUSTING ON PC.

Originally posted by Dennis on Archeli:


Quote:
There seems to be some confusion around the forums on how set the 3G DIR values correctly.

I'm by no means claiming to be an expert, but this is my view on the DIR cyclic values, I hope it helps a little.
These values reflect my T-rex700, your model may differ.

-------

DIR mode cyclic values are to teach the 3G system it's limitations, not to set your desired cyclic pitch.
This is why part of the 3G setup is the aileron & elevator LIMIT. The 3G needs to know where to stop tilting the swash.
DIR mode disconnects the cyclic gyros so you can measure your cyclic pitch accurately.

Then there's the Limits: A.Lim & E.Lim to teach the 3G where to stop.
It's similar to a tail gyro limit setting. A tail gyro needs to know where to stop.
The 3G also needs to know where to stop, & it needs some room to play with.

When we setup a tail gyro, we allow full travel of the tail pitch slider with no binding.
We need to do the same with the swashplate for the 3G, up to a maximum of 14°. (I have found 12° is a nice value that won't bind the swash in the "corners" while allowing more than adequate swash travel)

I have my 3G set for 12° cyclic pitch in DIR mode (which is 75% swash mix with swash mix EXP enabled)
After I complete the 3G configuration & exit setup mode, I roll back my cyclic swash mixes to 60% for my desired roll rate. (I came up with this value by feel in flight, not by a measured pitch value, just like we do with tail gyro pirouette rates)

Ideally, after you exit DIR mode, you want to roll back your swash mix cyclics for a slower roll/flip rate.
What this does is leave the 3G some room to play.
If you like the roll rate of 12°, set the DIR values higher up to a max of 14°, once again, so the 3G has room to play.


eg: 12° in DIR mode, will give a very fast max roll rate, but the 3G knows it's limit is 12°, so if you are already at max roll rate, the 3G simply CANNOT command a higher roll rate if it needs to due to a gust of wind etc, so under this circumstance the 3G WILL NOT perform as intended.
Imagine if you only set your usual 7~9° on a windy day.


After exiting DIR mode, reducing the swash mix values reduces the roll rate to a more acceptable level, but the 3G knows it can tilt the swash more if it needs to, to keep the commanded roll rate consistent.



To conclude:

What you need to do is set 12° of cyclic pitch in DIR mode on the aileron, set elevator to the same value. (The 3G automatically calculates a cyclic ring so there's no need to measure the elevator cyclic pitch, just set it the same as the aileron)
Go through the A.Lim & E.Lim & correction directions with these values.
Do this regardless of how much cyclic pitch you usually run, you are teaching the 3G the MECHANICAL LIMIT, just like you do when setting up a tail gyro.
Then roll back your swash mixes to suit your flying style (keep ELEV the same as AIL) after you fully complete 3G setup mode & test fly the model.


I believe that the majority of 3G problems that I have read are caused by incorrect setup, &/or misunderstanding of the 3G's configuration parameters.
This is most likely the reason Align only released a simplified Plug & Play version for now so we can familiarise ourselves with FBL principles before giving us access to the advanced parameters.



Addendum

If you are running V2.1 & have the USB interface, I recommend leaving the cyclic swash mix at the same values in the Tx as you did in DIR mode, & adjusting the roll & flip rates via the software

[K2Freak]

This says exactly what I have been telling you. Rates. Not travels. Rates in software. It also reiterates that if you went into dir mode without enough pitch it won't give you what you want.

Your original question was answered 10 or so posts ago. If you cannot get enough pitch (what you apparently call binding), then you went into DIR mode without your mixing set correctly and 3G does not see the whole pitch range.