New Scorpion HK-2520-1360Kv Motor for Warp360

[Bob O]

Originally Posted by helihaven

Yup...once the "C" clip is off..it just pulls apart...definately a larger gap......

Thanks. I grew some balls this morning and removed the clip. The can pulled off easily just like you said.....thank you.

I measured the outside diameter of the can in various spots around the can, and got 31.56mm (+/- .01mm). After I took pics and put the motor back together, I realized that I should have taken measurements from the inside as well. When the can measured true from the outside, I didn't think then of measuring the inside. Maybe tomorrow.

I took another pic, this time with the flash, so the magnet clearance could be seen a bit better. There's also a pic of the inside of the can where there's a glob of epoxy or some type of adhesive, for balancing maybe? And a couple of miscellaneous pics to boot.

I didn't get to apply any power to it this morning, and I'll be getting ready for work again soon. One thought about bearings, being that the motor has been opened, any good argument for replacing them with something better? I've never had a problem with bearings on my previous Scorpion motors, but I always oiled them after 6 flights. With this motor and the way it would sit in the Warp, I can't see having any luck with oiling the bearing next to the mounting surface. Just wondering if there would be a better bearing where lubing isn't suggested like it is with the factory bearings.

[Rob43]

Bob O - I just check my Warp for accessibility for lubricating that drive-end bearing. If you have an oiler with a needle tip like Scoprion's oiler, you can access it from the side of the frame opposite the drive belt guide roller. Should not be a problem for you. I'm a believer in oil lubricating those bearings. Technically, it's superior to pre-greased bearings at the crazy high shaft speeds they run.

[Bob O]

Rob,

I still have my Scorpion lube kit from two years ago. I would imagine the lube is still good.

Sent from my phone

[helihaven]

I use a hypodermic syringe with tri-flow....with a long needle...gets just about anywhere.

[Luvmyhelis]

Also, if you do replace them. Abec 5 ceramics work insanely well. They tighten up any tolerances. So the motor runs with even less vibes. Then, under abuse the balls wont deform as quickly. They also run better when not lubed as much in hard to lube places. Most Abec 5 rated bearings also have much tighter toleranced inner races and specs. So they are tighter around the shaft also. Kind of a plus plus situation. Since the elimination of any slop reduces vibes. Which increases longevity and actually helps produce more power. If most guys understood how much power/energy gets robbed with anything vibrating they would be astonished.

But truthfully, most Scorp bearings are ok. On mine though, the upper bearing was grainy and loose. So I replaced it and let Scorp know to keep an eye out here. Just like any company, parts they don't directly produce can come in with defects. So while it is apart check the bearings. Not only to see how cleanly they roll, but how much play they have. I use a rubber fixture to set the motor on while I drive out the bearings. This way the wiring doesn't get damaged.

[Bob O]

Lmh,

What do you think about the pics, and the clearance issue? Or is it a non-issue? You think I should power it up and see how it spins?

Also, do you have a link to ceramics in case I want to give them a try?

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by Bob O

Lmh,

What do you think about the pics, and the clearance issue? Or is it a non-issue? You think I should power it up and see how it spins?

Also, do you have a link to ceramics in case I want to give them a try?

Bob, if it isn't rubbing I wouldn't worry. If it is, take a small hand file and slightly take down the stator it is nicking or the clear coat over the magnet. I will get back to ya on those bearings. Since I buy mine in bulk at times. Usually though, the best deals are found on fleabay.

[Bob O]

Okay thanks. I'll spin it up Monday and see if it's smooth.

Sent from my phone

[BaconRaygun]

+1 on the ABEC#5's, or better yet #7's.

I'm gonna switch out my bearings for Boca's Orange seal ABEC#7 ceramic hybrids.

Personally, I have had issues with scorpion bearings, even after oiling. Not knocking scorpion, just saying an upgrade is not a bad idea at some point (not necessarily right away).

I would say no real need to swap the bearings for around 1-200 flights (I'm not doing it right away either), but once you do decide to do it, go ABEC#5 or #7.

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by BaconRaygun

+1 on the ABEC#5's, or better yet #7's.

I'm gonna switch out my bearings for Boca's Orange seal ABEC#7 ceramic hybrids.

Personally, I have had issues with scorpion bearings, even after oiling. Not knocking scorpion, just saying an upgrade is not a bad idea at some point (not necessarily right away).

I would say no real need to swap the bearings for around 1-200 flights (I'm not doing it right away either), but once you do decide to do it, go ABEC#5 or #7.

I soooo agree. Abec 5s to me are a minimum requirement. 7's are even better. With even less bearing play they last even longer. The reason why is most the race wear is caused by shock factors in a motor if the install is correct. Less movement or slop restricts the shock factor. The ceramic balls never wear. Unlike metal ones. So all that does wear is the race.

So by using ceramics at this level. You eliminate a few things. It takes slop or free play to gather momentum from parts to be able to swing out and back to hammer the opposite race. By controlling this it stops this to a greater degree. Next, since the balls themselves cannot deform under that same pressure, you greatly extend the life of the part. Since the metal ball itself isn't deforming and adding to the slop. Plus, and this is huge. The ceramics remain slippery even when under lubed. Where metal balls begin frictional heat and impact welding.

[Bob O]

Originally Posted by Bob O

Okay thanks. I'll spin it up Monday and see if it's smooth.

Sent from my phone

First thing I will say is I'm glad this isn't the middle of flying season. Second is I'm glad none of my electronics are fried.

Background on the ESC......I purchased it brand new from Nankin Hobby 2 to 3 months ago and it has performed great for about 15 to 20 flights.

Just about one hour ago, I disconnected the Compass motor from the ESC and plugged the new Scorpion into the ESC. The connectors were a perfect fit. I Did Not reprogram the ESC (I hope that wasn't the cause of this problem), rather I just left everything the same......Mode 4 was already programmed, throttle curves were left untouched.

I plugged the flight pack in and got the normal initialization tones from ESC. I held onto the base of the motor and flipped out of TH right into ST2 (flat 70%). The motor started spooling up very smoothly and quietly. However, before it got out of soft start, I would say about 80% of the way through, the motor stuttered and immediately after that there was a brief sizzle from the ESC and it shut down. I quickly unplugged the battery. Although I couldn't see any smoke, there was a burning smell.

The motor can was a little warm, which was surprising considering it had only ran with no load for less than 10 seconds, but there was no smell to it. The ESC however smelled burnt. There are no visible signs of burning from the outside, and no signs that the shrink wrap was burnt.

So I disconnected the Scorpion and plugged the ESC back into the stock motor. The electronics initialized just fine but there were no tones from the ESC, and the light on the ESC was in a flashing mode. I also plugged the ESC in without any connection to a motor and got the same flashing mode with no tones.

Upon checking the manual for the blink code, it has two areas of troubleshooting. One area is for the blink code upon connecting the battery, and the other area is for unexpected shut down. Unfortunately I did not look for lights after I heard the sizzle, instead I just went to unplug the battery as quickly as I could. So I can only go by the blink code for connecting, which is:

LED blinks twice: Error during check of motor cable. Check connectors. If no improvement is realized send ESC with a completed service form to KONTRONIK.

I checked the cables and connectors and everything appears fine. I plugged the battery in a couple of times after that and did not get any tones, only the blinks, therefore I can't re-program the ESC. My only option at this point is to send it in for warranty service.



I don't have a spare ESC at the moment that can do 6S, so I'm stalled out until I can get one. I'm going to go back to Castle Creations, I never had a problem with them. I had an ICE Lite 50 at the start of my build.......I should have kept it.

The one thing I don't know is what caused the ESC to smoke.

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by Bob O

The one thing I don't know is what caused the ESC to smoke.

Could be half a dozen things. But, here is what I see. When an esc hits its phasing limits it begins to stutter. And amp spikes go wild. Up to 80 or 90 amps have been seen here. Kontronics are good escs but have lower phasing ability than the Ice series. Not only this but they aren't as tuneable. Where the Ice esc can be preset to drop out with small amp spikes, the Kontronic cannot.

The extra two stators and 10 mag config on these Scorp motors take most esc's out past their factory limits. In fact, they almost double the required phasing ability to run them.

It is this phasing speed that gives this Scorp such amazing power and efficiency though.

[lcc014]

Originally Posted by Luvmyhelis

Could be half a dozen things. But, here is what I see. When an esc hits its phasing limits it begins to stutter. And amp spikes go wild. Up to 80 or 90 amps have been seen here. Kontronics are good escs but have lower phasing ability than the Ice series. Not only this but they aren't as tuneable. Where the Ice esc can be preset to drop out with small amp spikes, the Kontronic cannot.

The extra two stators and 10 mag config on these Scorp motors take most esc's out past their factory limits. In fact, they almost double the required phasing ability to run them.

It is this phasing speed that gives this Scorp such amazing power and efficiency though.

So, does this mean that we prefer to use CC ICE ESC along with this new Scorpion motor ?

[Bob O]

I just went through the manual for the Koby again, and couldn't find anything that says to re-program the ESC when switching motors. The only thing it says regarding motors and Heli Mode 4 is this:

"The KOBY RPM control is adjusted automatically to the application during the first start of the motor after connecting the battery."

In previous discussion in different threads, it's been said that all the Koby needs is to be programmed for Mode 4, that it learns everything it needs to about the motor by being connected to it.

I'm just not overly impressed by this whole situation at the moment. If this ends up being my fault because I didn't re-program Mode 4 before before spooling up a different motor, it really should say in the manual that this needs to be done. I don't think it's common knowledge. However, if it ends up being that the Kontronik can't handle this high phasing, that's a whole 'nother story.

Guys with a Koby ESC who are considering this Scorpion, proceed with caution I guess. At a minimum you might want to re-program the ESC with this motor connected but BEFORE spooling it up for the first time.

Good luck.

[BaconRaygun]

Bob, not to throw a stick in the spokes here... but it could be your motor was defective. You did have that gap issue, so perhaps there was something else wrong too. it could also be a solder joint issue.

A few things to look for.
-Solder joints on the bullets of the motor. Luvmyhelis, didn’t you have one that was bad from the factory?
-Insulation on the bullets. I know sometimes there is a little bit of bare bullet left at the connecting point, if two or three are like this, there can be an arc.

The above is dismissing internal defects as these motors seem to be well insulated internally... though things happen, so it could be.

I don’t know how a Kontronic would handle the arcing/shorting situation, but a CC ESC just shuts down (you guessed it, guilty).

[Bob O]

I'll check the bullets on the motor when I get back home. But its unlikely they arced as the wrap was good on both ends of the connection, and I have the connectors offset from eachother to prevent that very thing.

If I end up sending the ESC in, I wonder if they would want the motor too? We'll see what they say about it. I hope it doesn't have to go back to Germany.

Sent from my phone

[kachur779]

Maybe the bolts are going into far ,did you use a multimeter and seeMaybe get a yep in the meantime it's only $23

[Stevemech]

Originally Posted by Bob O

I'll check the bullets on the motor when I get back home. But its unlikely they arced as the wrap was good on both ends of the connection, and I have the connectors offset from eachother to prevent that very thing.

If I end up sending the ESC in, I wonder if they would want the motor too? We'll see what they say about it. I hope it doesn't have to go back to Germany.

Sent from my phone

Sorry about the smoking esc,I thought it should work with the scorpion motor.I wonder what esc scorpion recommends or specs we should be checking and how to determine if there set right before it's smoked ?
Steve

[Luvmyhelis]

Originally Posted by lcc014

So, does this mean that we prefer to use CC ICE ESC along with this new Scorpion motor ?

Well, I was hoping not? But they do reportedly have the highest phasing speeds on the market so far. I was hoping the Kontronic and Yeg's could all handle this. I know the Yge does now from guys pming me.

Originally Posted by BaconRaygun

BLuvmyhelis[/B], didn’t you have one that was bad from the factory?

No, mine was ok. The wire had broken right at the solder leach area from internal flexing as I had moved it so many times not only in testing but with various installs due to changing out so many uncooperative esc's. And changing esc locations. Maybe also more to do with how anal I am with getting all my wiring clean and internal. I had some difficulty getting the bullets connected and pulled apart a few times as they are buried. And am sure that contributed to the break.

Also having mags get close to the stators on small motors like these isn't an issue unless they are rubbing.

Bob, instead of checking with a VU meter I would pull the can off the motor and inspect it. With the way they wire these motors it will still show resistance even with burnt wire.

Last summer I had problems with even the Castles working with this stator/mag motor design on its 12s 1020kv prototype cousin. I burned up two Castle esc's and a Scorp motor due to spiking/phasing issues at half speed and recorded 70+a spikes during the process. I ended up finding a flaw in Castles newest 4.01vs software which was causing this.

But on 6s with the /Scorp 1360kv/Ice50 the esc is running fantastically.

[Bob O]

Originally Posted by kachur779

Maybe the bolts are going into far ,did you use a multimeter and seeMaybe get a yep in the meantime it's only $23

No, the motor wasn't installed. I did hand thread two bolts in a few turns so I could hold onto it better though. The ends of the bolts were flush with the inside of the motor.

I'll take the motor apart again and check for anything unusual, burn marks, etc.