Hard Deck Function

[Cailid]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

As has been stated earlier, this may not be useful for on the deck 3D smack, but as a training tool for pilots starting out, who would prefer more time flying and learning than repairing and rebuilding after a crash.

When you really stop to think about how high 50 ft is, how many people actually fly that high? That's the height of a 5 story building. How many beginners are going to fly above that? I know that I never did.

The device is a nice concept but the hard deck is just way too high.

[Stumblebee]

By now, our collective heart rates and blood pressures have returned to normal. We start breathing gently and softly chanting our mantras as we await further enlightenment. We busy ourselves by nurturing our PayPal gardens and watching them grow. Soon, they will be called to task.

If one were to wax poetic, one could say that the Hard Deck allows your heli to awaken from a nightmare and settle gently on a sunbeam. Or to put it another way, your heli becomes like a cat, capable of always landing on its feet (skids).

[BlackWatch88]

I got a much more practical question.

Will it work with SBUS? everyone now seems to have a FBL system and if people such as myself have gone the Sbus route there will be nightmare of a wiring job to do.

Really hard to see myself doing the job I did on the 700 with a 6014HS and 3g when I first started out using the CPII

Could you kinda do it with a Firmware where one cable from the four servo leads pluged into the sbus port can read all the signals from the RX? And one line from one of the output ports is SBUS compatible?

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by Cailid

When you really stop to think about how high 50 ft is, how many people actually fly that high? That's the height of a 5 story building. How many beginners are going to fly above that? I know that I never did.

The device is a nice concept but the hard deck is just way too high.

HI Cailid,

No contest there. It is higher than I would like. Trust me R&D is working at lowering that number. However, on the positive side, with the HD mode selected the helicopter is in a stabilized mode from the ground up to the minimum 50 ft. What that says is the helicopter can not be rotated or tipped more than 30 degrees from the horizontal significantly aiding the beginner.

As for flying over 50 ft. I do it a lot, it's just the height of the trees around my house. It really doesn't seem that high to me. I am a relic of fixed wing airplanes and much of the time I fly the helicopter the same way I flew or fly my airplanes. That's just my style, some slow 3D but no hard fast, low 3D for the most part. As far me when I began flying around backward, inverted and just now starting to fly inverted backward I did not attempt at a low altitude. I was always well over 50 ft. in the air to practice a new orientation.

Everyone has different learning curves based, to a large degree, on the level of eye hand coordination they are blessed with at birth. I happened to be absent the day that ability was passed out. Seriously, I have a very slow learning curve and probably less than average eye hand coordination. Never very good at any type sport in school as a result. So I have learned to live with that. It has taken me a long long time to reach the meager level I have achieved and have seen other pilot friend of mine far surpass my skill in less than 3 months flying. What a blessing that must be. Only for some of us to dream about. But as technology advances, such as CoPilot HD, I can enjoy the hobby and continue to increase my skill level.

Let me give you a for instance. For the past couple years I have wanted to advance to the level of flying inverted backward. When I would attempt this, my mind would freeze and quit working and I would start banging the sticks around, never getting the helicopter under control and would most often crash. This costing me money, time and mental anguish for being so inapt, slow and many other things. As a result I would rarely attempt inverted backward flying. As a result, didn't learn to fly inverted backward. Now to the good news, as alpha testing with CoPilot HD progressed and I became confident the it would in fact perform as expected, opened up a new world to me. On a Sunday morning a few months ago I put my Trex 500 50 + ft. in the air and rolled it inverted. I then preceded to fly the bird inverted backward for the entire flight. I did in fact, as usually, get disoriented, frozen thumbs as before but the HD would catch me and put me right. I would roll or loop to inverted and continue flying backward inverted. This scenario repeated itself over and over during the flight. Bottom line, I flew 5 or 6 flights that morning and by the last flight I hardly ever lost orientation and hit the hard deck and I accomplished/advanced more in that one morning than I had in the past year. I went home that morning smiling from ear to ear, bird in one piece and no need to buy parts or spend hours rebuilding.

Let me say, I am so envious of you guys that learn quickly from your mistakes and have that great natural fast eye hand coordination. You are so lucky. But for us other unfortunate pilots there is now CoPilot HD.


Jack

[im4711]

Iteresting read - mostly how its defended by a few only. Not sure what this is revolutionizing. We have quite a few self leveling systems that would pull out a heli if the beginner screws up. They work at an altitude where a beginner would start screwing up. So with no offense but beginners do not start flying above 50 ft and have to learn basics first.
Nevertheless an interesting idea and I am sure it will be just a matter of time to get it working much lower. I am sure about that.

BTW if you wonder why so many are suspicious about your system you advertise here? You claim having a lot of flights with it and not a single video proof of its capability. Why? Are you affrait the video would not turn out right? Videos could be mor convincing than just words. And the video about how it works would make people believe its working at low deck flying which is not rue yet.
So show the capability with a real RC heli and let us see how it works.
Will be interesting to see where this development is going to lead us.

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by Cailid

When you really stop to think about how high 50 ft is, how many people actually fly that high? That's the height of a 5 story building. How many beginners are going to fly above that? I know that I never did.

The device is a nice concept but the hard deck is just way too high.

FINALLY someone with a concept of heights.

I was just reading another one where the guy threw a line over his heli 75 feet in a tree

In the building trade,I have a VERY good concept of height and I know I won't be throwing a golf ball with a string through it over the roof of a 7 story building.

I don't know of many trees that actually grow to that kind of height.

One guy was telling me the other day that he climbed 200 feet in a tree to get his plank.....I wanted to smack him and walk off quietly

Aaaaaanyway...50 feet hard deck is too high....for noobs or me or about anyone.
A few people fly that high but they are experienced flyers...Flying high altitude with a plank is easy but pretty difficult for extended times with a heli.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by im4711

Iteresting read - mostly how its defended by a few only. Not sure what this is revolutionizing. We have quite a few self leveling systems that would pull out a heli if the beginner screws up. They work at an altitude where a beginner would start screwing up. So with no offense but beginners do not start flying above 50 ft and have to learn basics first.
Nevertheless an interesting idea and I am sure it will be just a matter of time to get it working much lower. I am sure about that.

BTW if you wonder why so many are suspicious about your system you advertise here? You claim having a lot of flights with it and not a single video proof of its capability. Why? Are you affrait the video would not turn out right? Videos could be mor convincing than just words. And the video about how it works would make people believe its working at low deck flying which is not rue yet.
So show the capability with a real RC heli and let us see how it works.
Will be interesting to see where this development is going to lead us.

The posting of flight videos and of related photographs of the unit are not with in my authority to release.

And to be completely clear on the matter..
I was brought up as being a man of my word.... I will take your argument one step further ...
I can defend the platform wholeheartedly, because I have seen it in action and know it works..
Your choice to question is valid enough, But I am not one to spin a yarn for giggles here on HF
And as to...
" Not sure what this is revolutionizing. We have quite a few self leveling systems that would pull out a heli if the beginner screws up. They work at an altitude where a beginner would start screwing up."

I have yet to find one system that can work on both fixed wing and Helicopter and can engaged automatically during conventional or 3D flight and has the capabilities to correct the aircraft's attitude back to level no matter the what position the aircraft was in and return control back to the pilot.

I'll stand corrected to anyone who can show me that this isn't the only platform to date that has these capabilities.

You want video proof..
To be sure it is forth coming..

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

I have yet to find one system that can work on both fixed wing and Helicopter and can engaged automatically .

It's the cheapest but far from the only one.

There are several units with GPS and altimeter capabilities....expensive as hell but out there.

There are units you could use on 3D helis that activate at a certain altitude and can even recognize obstacles and return the heli home and land safely if the TX fails.

There are lots of them.

CPII is the cheapest.

Every multirotor in the air has a self leveling gyro set up and MANY of them release control to the flyer until it gets too low or too far away.
All those units can be set up to handle 3D flight.

[nightflyr]

It's the cheapest but far from the only one.

There are several units with GPS and altimeter capabilities....expensive as hell but out there.
These are the auto pilots systems I assume your referring to?

There are units you could use on 3D helis that activate at a certain altitude and can even recognize obstacles and return the heli home and land safely if the TX fails.

There are lots of them.
But do they have the ability to say correct from an inverted tail slide or can correct from inverted flight ?
Most of the auto pilot systems I have seen (DJI for example) have an outstanding rep for its accuracy but I have never seen it used to auto correct during 3d flight maneuvers.
CPII is the cheapest.

Every multirotor in the air has a self leveling gyro set up and MANY of them release control to the flyer until it gets too low or too far away.
All those units can be set up to handle 3D flight.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here.. most multirotor platforms are fixed pitched, I can not see how that can be adapted to inverted flight.
I'm not into these type of platforms so I may well be missing something here.

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

But do they have the ability to say correct from an inverted tail slide or can correct from inverted flight ?
.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here.. most multirotor platforms are fixed pitched, I can not see how that can be adapted to inverted flight.
I'm not into these type of platforms so I may well be missing something here.

If the heli is coming in at 100mph from a tail slide and the CPII flips it back over...it's still going to be going 100mph and god only knows where the nose is pointed....Now it will cover even more ground completely out of the newbies control....Not sure keeping it flying is always the best idea.

Guys doing big tail slides are not newbies learning to fly and usually will scoff at a system that keeps them 50 off the deck.

The multirotor question....the gyro has no freaking idea how many rotors it has...no clue if it's fixed pitch or not....NO GYRO SYSTEM DOES...that would be the flight control board.

It only knows direction and attitude and most have modules for location.

AND the CPII doesn't apply to inverted either....It only knows up and down and auto corrects to skids down.
The stabe system on a multi would do the same.

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by McKrackin

If the heli is coming in at 100mph from a tail slide and the CPII flips it back over...it's still going to be going 100mph and god only knows where the nose is pointed....Now it will cover even more ground completely out of the newbies control....Not sure keeping it flying is always the best idea.

Guys doing big tail slides are not newbies learning to fly and usually will scoff at a system that keeps them 50 off the deck.

The multirotor question....the gyro has no freaking idea how many rotors it has...no clue if it's fixed pitch or not....NO GYRO SYSTEM DOES...that would be the flight control board.

It only knows direction and attitude and most have modules for location.

AND the CPII doesn't apply to inverted either....It only knows up and down and auto corrects to skids down.
The stabe system on a multi would do the same.

You see that is the difference.. The HD module in conjunction with the CPII does understand and will apply the correct collective to correct from inverted to level flight.

• Hitting the hard deck triggers Emergency Recovery
• CoPilotII takes control of collective pitch, aleron and elevator (cyclic)
• Gives 8 degree negative collective pitch
• Gives appropriate elevator to pitch the nose up
• Gives aileron input to roll helicopter to upright
• As the main blades pass the vertical then 8 degrees of positive collective pitch is applied
• The helicopter continues to roll and pitch to a level orientation
• Once the helicopter is level then control of collective pitch and cyclic pitch is returned to the pilot

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

You see that is the difference.. The HD module in conjunction with the CPII does understand and will apply the correct collective to correct from inverted to level flight

and after it's skids down,it releases control to the flyer....where is the left stick?
It is at negative pitch and is now in a powered descent. The company rep already said so.

Most newbies will lock up and brain freeze waiting for the CPII to save the day and hold the stick at less than 50% until it piles in.

I'm not saying it's a bad system. It's just going to be another thing for a newbie to learn to use. Maybe one too many.

I started with a Helicommand 3D....Great stabe system but I flew for over a year,inverted and everything and still didn't really know how to fly when I sold the HC.
It would take over automatically when I released the cyclic stick and it would recover to the closest attitude..inverted or upright and the collective was usually in the right place.

[nightflyr]

The system, if collective stick correction is not done, will engage again, the helicopter won't be screaming earth bound.

Hi stevehof,
When the helicopter is placed in the upright position and control is returned to the pilot, if the throttle/collective pitch lever is still in the negative position the helicopter will be forced down into the hard deck again and that would initiate an emergency recovery again.
Jack __________________
Jack Doherty
FMA Beta Tester
CoPilot II
PowerLab 8


And you learn to retreat skyward ( at least that is how I learned) long before any of these platforms were on the market.

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

The system, if collective stick correction is not done, will engage again, the helicopter won't be screaming earth bound.

And you learn to retreat skyward ( at least that is how I learned) long before any of these platforms were on the market.

That's not what the rep said....He said YOU need to change to positive to stop the descent.

And you won't retreat at all if you think your heli is uncrashable. Especially when it takes control suddenly and returns it just as suddenly.
How'd you put it? Blase'?

[nightflyr]

That is the direct quote...
if the throttle/collective pitch lever is still in the negative position the helicopter will be forced down into the hard deck again and that would initiate an emergency recovery again.

I didn't make it up...

[McKrackin]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

That is the direct quote...
if the throttle/collective pitch lever is still in the negative position the helicopter will be forced down into the hard deck again and that would initiate an emergency recovery again.

I didn't make it up...

OK...so it pogos in and out of the HD giving you momentary control,then taking it....

It has no position hold so where's it headed while the newbie is brain locked?

By the way,find the other post from the other rep and quote it too. He contradicted that.

[McKrackin]

I prefer the HC system that takes control when you release cyclic but any stick input over rides the HC.

[nightflyr]

Po-going in a level attitude at least give a person a chance to regain control Vs. being shell shocked watching the machine taking a dirt nap.
BTW the control loop for recovery is 2 seconds or less, so there really is no long wait to get the machine back in to pilot control.
As with new hardware the pilot new or experienced needs to understand exactly what will and can happen when approaching the HD

[nightflyr]

Originally Posted by McKrackin

OK...so it pogos in and out of the HD giving you momentary control,then taking it....

It has no position hold so where's it headed while the newbie is brain locked?

By the way,find the other post from the other rep and quote it too. He contradicted that.

I looked as you asked, this was the only thing I found but does not infer to inverted flight or collective correction.

" The hard deck module will not return the aircraft to the predetermined altitude when set up in the Hard Deck mode. It just get the aircraft upright and stable an then returns control to the pilot. You may in fact be several feet below the hard deck. At this time the CoPilot is still stabilizing the aircraft and will continue to do so until the aircraft ascends to a altitude above the hard deck. As long as the aircraft is below the hard deck it is stabilized and CPII will not allow it to be roll or flipped upside down. This prevents the pilot from fighting the CoPilot to the point the pilot forces the aircraft into the ground, especially if the stick priority is set very high. What will happen if the pilot attempts to roll or flip the aircraft below the hard deck is: as the attitude of the aircraft reaches approximately 30 degrees then CoPilot momentarily takes over bringing the aircraft level. If the pilot continues holding extreme cyclic then the process will continue to reoccur. From the ground you will see the aircraft bobble 1) indicating the aircraft is below the hard deck and 2) prevents the pilot from forcing the aircraft into a crash.
Jack

[jdd1]

Originally Posted by nightflyr

That is the direct quote...
if the throttle/collective pitch lever is still in the negative position the helicopter will be forced down into the hard deck again and that would initiate an emergency recovery again.

I didn't make it up...

Ok, let me clarify a little. The statement above is true only if the following two items are true.
1) the helicopter has risen above the hard deck during the recovery
2) the helicopter is more than 30 degrees or more from level
In this instance if the left stick was still down then the helicopter would hit the hard deck again and emergency recovery would trigger again giving positive pitch again.

However, if the helicopter is below the hard deck when the emergency recovery ends then yes the negative pitch would push the helicopter down but with stability now turned on.

Or if the helicopter is above the hard deck but is between 30 degree and 0 degrees level then the negative pitch would push the helicopter down. Once past the hard desk stabilization would turn on.

But yes the pilot would need to mentally train them selves to move the left stick up at the beginning of the emergency recovery.

Yes it is one more thing a pilot must learn and get use to. But because the pilot has developed some confidence in the system, hopefully that will decrease the brain freeze problem. I know it did for me.

Jack