Phoenix 5 sim & autorotations...

[andoy]

Hello all,

I've been practicing my auto's for a while now on the Phoenix sim and may attempt to finally do one IRL. Question is, how accurate is the sim compared to real life autos? Anyone care to share their first auto experiences? Thanks!

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by andoy

Hello all,

I've been practicing my auto's for a while now on the Phoenix sim and may attempt to finally do one IRL. Question is, how accurate is the sim compared to real life autos? Anyone care to share their first auto experiences? Thanks!

Nervous as you can possibly imagine. First time turning off the engine of a perfectly serviceable >$1000 heli at over 30ft takes some stones.

Phoenix sim is moderately accurate. Heli in the air will not slow down (lateral speed) as quick as Phoenix. Also Phoenix seems to give more "hang" time when you flare. IRL, the heli will seem to come down a lot quicker than on Phoenix.

I take it you are doing min-autos already.

Ensure you have a auto bailout configured if possible (so you are not waiting 8s for the heli to spool up). Start out on a straight approach, into the wind at over 60ft. Turn engine off and guide it in to 30ft then re-enable throttle. Get a feel for how fast the heli will descend and get used to lining it up and steering it to where you want to land. If in any doubt bail out.

IMPORTANT!!! ONLY bail out OVER 15ft. Below that, you are landing (and rely on your sim skills).

When autoing, I move my TH finger to the other side of the TH switch, so it is easy to re-engage throttle.

Once you are confident you can descend into where you want to land and are comfortable with the rate of descent, then go for it. Hint: Nose into the wind is easiest as you can maintain air speed (and some translation lift) right up to touch down.

Unless you have a 600 or 700 size heli, you do not want to auto straight down. Lateral speed (translation lift) is your friend.

Ensure you have tail control in the auto. With motor off, the tail blades should turn when main blades are turned. Some helis (like Warp 360) do not do this, but most do.

Best of luck. Being able to auto is a useful skill.

[andoy]

Originally Posted by ArchmageAU

Nervous as you can possibly imagine. First time turning off the engine of a perfectly serviceable >$1000 heli at over 30ft takes some stones.

Phoenix sim is moderately accurate. Heli in the air will not slow down (lateral speed) as quick as Phoenix. Also Phoenix seems to give more "hang" time when you flare. IRL, the heli will seem to come down a lot quicker than on Phoenix.

I take it you are doing min-autos already.

Ensure you have a auto bailout configured if possible (so you are not waiting 8s for the heli to spool up). Start out on a straight approach, into the wind at over 60ft. Turn engine off and guide it in to 30ft then re-enable throttle. Get a feel for how fast the heli will descend and get used to lining it up and steering it to where you want to land. If in any doubt bail out.

IMPORTANT!!! ONLY bail out OVER 15ft. Below that, you are landing (and rely on your sim skills).

When autoing, I move my TH finger to the other side of the TH switch, so it is easy to re-engage throttle.

Once you are confident you can descend into where you want to land and are comfortable with the rate of descent, then go for it. Hint: Nose into the wind is easiest as you can maintain air speed (and some translation lift) right up to touch down.

Unless you have a 600 or 700 size heli, you do not want to auto straight down. Lateral speed (translation lift) is your friend.

Ensure you have tail control in the auto. With motor off, the tail blades should turn when main blades are turned. Some helis (like Warp 360) do not do this, but most do.

Best of luck. Being able to auto is a useful skill.

Awesome write up archmage. I will be attempting this on my Goblin 700. Before I do though I'll have to enable auto bail out on my castle ESC. I'll do a quick vid of my progress and update this thread. Till then I need to grow a pair of cojones first. Lol

[gstoneberg]

I just started doing autos in January of this year with my Trex 550. I've posted a few videos including one "crash" which was basically a hard landing and tip over. If you're interested that thread is in the 550 heli section, https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=678385

The nice thing about autos is that your heli is pretty much out of energy when it gets to the ground so there's a decent chance the blades won't be damaged if you tip over. However, it is pretty easy to strip tail gears and I did that.

I did not set up bail-out on purpose so that once I committed to an auto I was going to do it. Now that I've done a few I'm thinking about going back and setting it up just for the sake of safety in case I do something silly. I would have taken 10 times as long to actually land had I had bail out when I was working up the nerve for the first one.

Good luck, it's a big-time adrenaline rush.

[Skidpad]

I'm pretty similar to gstoneberg above... Started doing autos on my Trex 550 a couple of months ago after practicing on my sim (RF 6.5) for quite some time.

I found doing them in real life is an entirely different experience than the sim - you can really hear the blades and feel the heli, and that is one key to being successful. The biggest thing that helped me was doing them on a day when there was a gentle breeze at the field... Shooting the auto into the wind is a *huge* help - particularly on a smaller bird like a 550. In my case I tried to mimic what I had seen at auto contests and the Curtis Youngblood YouTube video... It really helps if you've seen someone do them in real life, or watch that video.

The other thing I had done was setup autobailout so that I could take the heli up high, flip TH on, and start bringing it down while I adjusted collective and got a feel for it; this helped me a lot when it came time to land one, however, your first couple dozen will be a rush!

The biggest thing is to maintain your headspeed through a careful balance of forward speed, angle of attack (attitude of the heli), and pitch. The worst feeling is to run out of headspeed when you are still 10' in the air - been there! If you miss this delicate balancing act, just try and keep as much headspeed as you can and land it wherever it is... We all want a beautiful auto right in front of us, but until you find the balance strive to maintain headspeed and a consistent approach; accuracy will come later when it isn't such a heart-stopping event.

Here's mine:

Trex 550 autorotation practice (3 min 42 sec)

... I need to work on the flare (among other things, haha)

Good luck buddy... It is indeed a rush to land them!


Edit: here's a link to a previous thread I commented in, including a link to the Curtis Youngblood video and and excellent how-to by another HF member; check it out: https://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=679401

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by Skidpad

...
Good luck buddy... It is indeed a rush to land them!
...

Can definitely confirm this. Really gets the adrenalin running. Went out today and did some autos with my 450X. (only flew 3 batteries, but 4 autos, all from over 60ft. 3 in second flight and 1 in 3rd flight - all successful, no damage - ).

450 (325mm main blade) autos have almost no room for error. But feel pretty similar to autos in Phoenix (lateral speed on such a light heli runs out pretty quick). And yes they come in quick.

Amazing to "feel" it settle into a "glide" slope (balancing descent speed to maintain rotor speed). 450x with light weight rotor (and belt driven tail) runs out of blade inertia quick and relies on collective management to keep the rotor speed.

Unfortunately found a tail issue with the X5 in pre-flight and will need to fix before I fly it (so no autos with it).

[gstoneberg]

I have not worked up the nerve to try an auto with the 450x just yet, I'm impressed. I struggle, both IRL and the Sim, with over-controlling the collective in the flare. I don't think I have a problem under power but my autos look terrible. Very frustrating.

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by gstoneberg

I have not worked up the nerve to try an auto with the 450x just yet, I'm impressed. I struggle, both IRL and the Sim, with over-controlling the collective in the flare. I don't think I have a problem under power but my autos look terrible. Very frustrating.

450x is really. FlarePitchLand (no gaps between the three). One shot. Flare high it's a rough landing (if lucky). Flare low and you will be digging pieces out of the gound. One saving grace is the blades are not under power.

I have autoed 500s and 700s. 325mm blade size is not one to start with (but a lot less expensive to stuff up on).

[andoy]

Hmmm auto on a 450x? Wow didn't know those little helis could auto. Smallest I thought were 500's... Do u think if I practice on the sim with a 450x instead of a bigger Heli would net better results in real life through better collective management?

[andoy]

Skidpad, those were some sweet autos! U kept those head speeds well enough to have reserve on touch down. I'm envious!

[Skidpad]

Thanks! Admittedly, there was a bit of a breeze that day, and that makes a *huge* difference when learning these. Keep practicing, read the threads and watch the videos I linked, and give TH a try from up high; get comfy with the procedure, then try and land one. It's great fun, and a real sense of accomplishment!

[andoy]

Originally Posted by Skidpad

Thanks! Admittedly, there was a bit of a breeze that day, and that makes a *huge* difference when learning these. Keep practicing, read the threads and watch the videos I linked, and give TH a try from up high; get comfy with the procedure, then try and land one. It's great fun, and a real sense of accomplishment!

Oh I bet! The pucker factor is probably through the roof!

Another question; where is your collective stick position when gliding in before the flare? 0 pitch or slightly negative?! In the sim I've gotten used to having my stick at negative around a notch past 0. Does this depict real life collective position?

[Skidpad]

Yes, slightly negative even into the flare. Curtis spends a couple of minutes talking about just that in his video. If you have a nice stabilized descent and approach you don't need to modulate the collective much, and once you get into ground effect you will actually hear the head speed increase all by itself. At that point you can let it settle or start modulating the collective for a soft touchdown....it just depends.

[gstoneberg]

Originally Posted by Skidpad

...At that point you can let it settle or start modulating the collective for a soft touchdown....it just depends.

Only if you do it right. I did 4 autos today with the 550. None of them were very good, but the heli's still flyable so it isn't a total loss. I did 3 of them in this video. My technique at stopping my forward progress isn't very good, and the grass this time of the year is so thick that there's no such thing as sliding it in. Later in the summer it'll be easier on the heli...but not the pilot.

550e 3d-practice (4 min 39 sec)

[ArchmageAU]

Originally Posted by andoy

Oh I bet! The pucker factor is probably through the roof! ...

Yep. Lots of electric heli pilots never learn to do one because of this.

It's the only precision manoeuvre that requires coordination with an outside object (and an immovable one at that). Everything else can be learned at height.

Originally Posted by andoy

...Another question; where is your collective stick position when gliding in before the flare? 0 pitch or slightly negative?! In the sim I've gotten used to having my stick at negative around a notch past 0. Does this depict real life collective position?

Originally Posted by Skidpad

Yes, slightly negative even into the flare. Curtis spends a couple of minutes talking about just that in his video....

In the video, Curtis mentions about -6 degrees negative pitch.(which is quite a bit, almost 1/2 down collective on a +/-13 degree setup). You also keep this till after the flare. The flare is where you match air speed and ground speed (as you should be heading into the wind, but still traveling relative to the ground). The flare gives you even more head speed.

Curtis also mentions that if you are losing head speed, a bit more negative collective and nose over a little (not too much).

Best of luck.

[Skidpad]

Yeah, I definitely don't have half-stick when coming down, but modulate it as needed. That is a good video, and a great way to learn the basics.