New Flybarless System

[fireup]

Originally Posted by int2str

Judging from your 500 head there, the washout mod doesn't even seem to be needed. The little guide you have is all that's needed? The linkage rods don't bend/flex?

I'd love to see a clean head like that for the 450 with an affordable flybar system. I certainly would entertain the idea!

Nope, in fact there's less flexing than the plastic links attached to the washout lever.

[int2str]

That kind of head should make mechanical setup a breeze, no?

If the new flybarless system that's been introduced in this thread is fairly easy to setup and cheaper than the V-Bar, I could see lot of people go for it.

Have you crashed your 500 like this yet? Seems like crash cost would be a lot less, too.

[mx400]

I would love to try an inexpensive flybarless system on 1 of my 450's. All the other flybarless systems are quite pricey and really not worth it on a 450 IMO. When you figure out a price that you will be selling these for post it up

[alvinchai]

Originally Posted by int2str

But I don't quite understand the washout base. I assume it's needed to spin the inner swash plate. But I don't see any guide pins from the head to the washout base. Am I blind or is there a different mechanism to link the two.

Also, are the gyros integrated?
I don't see a gyro other than the tail rudder gyro. Or is that not a regular gyro, but instead the gyros (plural) for this flybarless controller AND the tail gyro in one?

And finally, any estimate on price yet?

This is a 2 axis gyro, it is the black box mounted right under the battery tray.

There's a set screw on the washout to secure it to the main shaft. We tried flying without the reduction arm but the result was not good, not enough throws from the servos. I think we were getting around 15 degress of pitch with only 30% swash mixing, which is too little for the gyro to work well, a higher throw is needed to achieve good resolution.

Currently we are using the Kasama Mini Titan hub and blade grips, with this setup we were able to increase the distance from the hub and blade grips, allowing us to achieve the same throws and eliminating the reduction arm, making it a cleaner setup.

[fireup]

Originally Posted by alvinchai

Currently we are using the Kasama Mini Titan hub and blade grips, with this setup we were able to increase the distance from the hub and blade grips, allowing us to achieve the same throws and eliminating the reduction arm, making it a cleaner setup.

Have you try running it leading edge? You might like it better.

[alvinchai]

We tried it leading edge, but the Kasama blade grip arm (the red part) is at a weird angle, at zero pitch the arm is actually pointing upwards and not level, so we opt for trailing edge to get a better geometry.

[EricW]

Originally Posted by alvinchai

We tried it leading edge, but the Kasama blade grip arm (the red part) is at a weird angle, at zero pitch the arm is actually pointing upwards and not level, so we opt for trailing edge to get a better geometry.

IMHO The weird angle on the Kasama grips is meant to actually improve the geometry when you use the upper mixer arms,...
Since you don't use them the geometry is off.
A fairly simple modification would solve this.
Just move the red griparms to the other side of the grip by drilling/tapping new connection holes in the centerline of the grip.

Eric

[lrogers]

Have you tested with multi blades heads yet?

[spork]

Originally Posted by lrogers

Have you tested with multi blades heads yet?

I'm pretty sure they haven't tested with single blade heads yet.

[lrogers]

Oops, I think faster than I type! Let's rephrase that. Have you tested with a multi-blade head yet? A smooth flying H500 with 5 blade head is just what the doctor ordered!

[spork]

I was simply joking that most all heads are "multi-blade" (in that 2 counts as multi).

[alvinchai]

Originally Posted by EricW

IMHO The weird angle on the Kasama grips is meant to actually improve the geometry when you use the upper mixer arms,...
Since you don't use them the geometry is off.
A fairly simple modification would solve this.
Just move the red griparms to the other side of the grip by drilling/tapping new connection holes in the centerline of the grip.

Eric

Thanks for the tip, I may try that.

Last I spoke to my friend who designed the gyro system, he said he will be getting a 5-bladed head to try out. Will keep you guys posted.

[int2str]

Any updates?

[lrogers]

I should be ordering the 5 blade head for my Sea king in about three weeks. I hope to also get one for the T-Rex about the same time if they are back in stock.

OOPs, sorry guys, I thought this thread was in another discussion group and I didn't go back to the begining before answering.

[alvinchai]

Updates so far... my friend (the gyro designer) is finalizing the case design with the molding company, same for the circuit printing. We should receive the pre-production unit very soon for a once-over, making sure everything is within specs and working. Wouldn't be long now I hope.

Also the 4-bladed head for the Trex is on-route, will post the results of the test flight soon.

[Borneoben]

Any indcication on Price yet?

[F1Atom]

I'll like the idea of flybarless. Less parts to break when in crash and less to setup. Looks Kool too. I've never flown one before, how is it compared to flying it with the flybar on? Is it more twitchy, responsive, etc.... From the videos it looks more twitchy but I've seen videos from the Szabo's where they fly almost the same or 450 with Scorpion -6 motor, or even a NEU motor (Holy Crap). I'm not trying to rain-down on anything I just want to see what the advantages of having V-bar. I hope it doesn't cost so much.

[Skookum]

Hi All, I'm the developer of the SK360 Digital Flybar.

Final dimensions are 40x30x15mm, and it can be mounted in almost any orientation. Weight is 20 grams.

The gyro can be set up with or without the USB interface (included), but you'll get better results if you use the interface. Most field-tuning just uses dials on the unit's case. It can use analog or digital servos, latency is just a few milliseconds, and end-to-end precision is 12 bits.

Production is underway and it should be available before the end of March. Price will be less than half that of the v-bar.

Re multi-blades: I just finished testing it with a quad-rotor head on the Trex-450, and after getting the phasing right, it flies very well. The popular low-cost quad head used needed some work though, to get the vibration down from "paint mixer" to "Amsterdam special" (Quads turn out to be 2x as hard to set up as twin blades. Who knew).

The quad Trex has a very solid feel in forward flight, tracks like its’ on rails. It will also hover hands off for about 10 seconds in gusty wind, which is about normal for a flybarless heli with the SK360.

The SK360 has flown a blade cp, x400 (mech mixed), Trex 450 (many configurations), Mini Titan, and Logo 500. Testing is still underway on 30 and 50 size nitros, and the Trex 500. No problems are expected, as it has flown for 6 months and hundreds of flights in many setups, good and bad, with few problems. The rule seems to be that the bigger the rotor disk, the easier tuning is. The Logo 500 for example required no tuning at all from the "starting point" settings.

Mechanically most helis can be converted to flybarless with existing parts, but using a zero-slop swashplate and digital servos really helps. A trex-450 can be converted in about 30 minutes. We will provide instructions for easy conversion of the trex and others. The ideal would be for flybarless heads to be provided for the popular models, but it might take them time to catch up.

When the gyro is available, a link will be provided to the website.

Thanks,
Bruce

[fireup]

Skookum, that's great, hope you mean before the end of March 2008.

Sign me up for one.

Is it a 2 axis system or 3 axis system (do I need a tail gyro)?

[int2str]

Nice! Less than half the V-Bar price sounds very competitive!

Will you offer a 2-blade (flybarless) head for the T-Rex as well?
If not, can somebody point me to source for a flybarless T-Rex 450 head?

Not sure if I'll go for it just yet, but I'm seriously considering it - especially at that price possibility!