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10-06-2010, 08:47 AM | #1 (permalink) |
Join Date: May 2008
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How-To: Funnels w/ Video
New Video Added:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMvvwu9kkg[/ame] Funnels are a nice looking maneuvar that at first may look difficult and or complicated, but once you understand the fundementals of what a funnel really is they are not so bad. Pre-requisites This maneuvar only requires you to be able to do forward or backwards flight, and the willingness to retrain your brain to do circuits with different controls. Inverted funnels are obviously much more difficult and require some profeciency at inverted forward and backwards flight. Analyzing Funnels Funnels can be flown in many different orientations. There are 8 in total. Nose Down, Tail Down, CW or CCW, Upright or Inverted. Some may also know that there are 8 general orientations of forward flight circuits as well. Nose Forward, Tail Forward, CW or CCW, upright or Inverted... Coincidence? No not really. The reason is that a funnel is exactly the same type of maneuvar as any other type of circuit. The only difference is the orientation of the heli and the controls you use for aileron and elevator. What do I mean by this? Well think of flying a ccw upright circuit for a second. You generally use left aileron to turn into the bank and back elevator to pull back through the turn. Now think of the same circuit but with the heli tail down instead. Think of the left side of the heli (as looking from behind) as being the "nose" or having a big nose put on it. Now elevator is acting as the aileron, and aileron is acting like the elevator (specifically down elevator is acting like left aileron, and right aileron is acting like back elevator). The controls have simply phased 90 degrees. If you were to turn your radio 90 degrees to the right (don't try this) you'd see that controls would be exactly the same as the nose forward circuit. The good thing is that the rudder control always stays the same. So what all this means is that you already know the mechanics of flying a funnel, it's no different from a regular circuit. You just need to train yourself on the control changes. Let's get on with it If you have a sim, definately start with that. You are going to get disorientated easily when starting these out... Let's start with a ccw nose down funnel. The easiest way I've had learning funnels is to start a regular circuit and then apply a little extra rudder to move the nose or tail to point down. So start with a ccw forward flying circuit and give a little extra left rudder to get the nose to point in. When the nose points down, now your elevator is going to control your bank angle. Pulling back will flatten you out, and pusing forward will steepen the bank. Also aileron is now acting as your elevator. Left aileron is now "pulling" through the bank just as pulling back on the elevator will do on a regular banked turn. For a tail down funnel start with a backwards ccw circuit, and give a little extra left rudder to bring the tail down. Now right aileron is used to pull through the bank. Forward elev flattens the bank, and pulling back steepens it. It definately gets confusing getting used to the control phases, but here's one thing to keep in mind that will help simplify the process a little bit... In another thread I discuss what I call "coordinated" and "uncoordinated" controls. Coordinated controls are when the aileron and rudder are used in the same direction, and uncoordinated is when rudder and aileron are used in opposite directions. Forward flight upright circuits are coordinated, and backwards flight is uncoordinated. Likewise nose down funnels are coordinated and tail down funnels are uncoordinated. For example in a tail down funnel your rudder and aileron movements will be in opposite directions. If you keep that in mind when doing funnels it will help you remember which controls to use. ---- Hope that helps a bit. It reads more complicated that it really is. Just keep practicing and you'll quickly get the hang of it. The hardest part is getting used to the elevator controls during a funnel, so just keep working on it and you'll have it in no time. Oh and don't worry about inverted funnels. Keep working on upright funnels and by the time you're ready for inverted funnels you'll already know everything you need to do them inverted. Last edited by RĒzĒ; 09-09-2011 at 04:41 PM.. |
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10-06-2010, 04:59 PM | #2 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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This is great !
Stumbled in to helifreak today to look up some swashplate info for my 450 pro, when I saw this new thread.
I can easily fly circles,figure 8's and hover in all orientations/directions, but I have struggled with my funnels, never really understood how to get into one and keep my heli there. But this was really well written, and I thank you for making me feel like an idiot for not figuring this out =) Again well written. |
10-18-2010, 11:02 PM | #5 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Nice tips RaZa. I reckon diagrams will help heaps when discussing maneuvers esp with explaining orientation. Then you probably don't have to worry about making the video
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10-19-2010, 01:01 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
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10-19-2010, 09:05 AM | #7 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2008
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Of course. However, for the purposes of having an example to go by I usually choose ccw circuits. I've found most people have a tendency to be more comfortable with left rudder than with right.
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11-11-2010, 12:35 PM | #8 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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I guess this would be next to learn.... I think I have backwards upright about as good as I'm going to get at it for now. I thought about going to inverted as the next step to learn but this seems an easier step?
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"It's not the crash so much as the sudden stop" Compass 7HV, Compass 6HV, TRex450Pro, bunch of other junk in boxes ... Team Flybar Team Tail-In wannabe.... |
11-11-2010, 05:26 PM | #9 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2008
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funnels imho are much easier than inverted. funnels are just circuits. technically if you are good at nose or tail forward circuits (that are nice and tight) you are doing a side down funnel
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11-11-2010, 05:30 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
That is pretty much where I am at right now.... FF and backward upright, stall turns, have done a few backflips up high...... Great section here by the way.....
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"It's not the crash so much as the sudden stop" Compass 7HV, Compass 6HV, TRex450Pro, bunch of other junk in boxes ... Team Flybar Team Tail-In wannabe.... |
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07-20-2011, 11:28 AM | #11 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Great info Raza. I've been able to start a CCW tail down funnel with my FP and on the sim with a CP, and didn't quite get how to keep them going. After reading this I tried it on the sim and it made so much sense. After a few tries I was able to transition from a CCW tail down to a CW tail down funnel. Nose down needs some more practice but hey its a start. This flight school thread has the info I've been looking for.
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08-22-2011, 12:34 AM | #12 (permalink) |
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I figured a funnel was one of the easier things to do but for the life of me I find it extremely hard to get one started. Once I get one going I can hold it for awhile but it's just getting it started that gives me fits. I've spent hours and hours on Phoenix trying to nail the upright/nose down and still having fits both CW and CCW.
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08-28-2011, 07:15 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
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Quote:
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08-28-2011, 08:04 PM | #14 (permalink) |
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Here's my post asking for help, plus a Phoenix pxr file humbly demonstrating my skill. Any advice? I'd love help from my fellow funnelers!
please help me debug my funnels! (Phoenix recording attached) |
09-01-2011, 10:13 AM | #15 (permalink) |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Am I right in saying that you can achieve faster CCW funnels nose down before the tail blows out (and vice versa nose up) because the heli naturally wants to turn with the torque of the main blades in a CCW direction. You will get tail blowout much earlier on at a slower speed in a CW funnel nose down skids out because the tail has to fight drag and the motor torque. CCW the tail only has to fight drag? Does that sound right? Just learning these now and I like doing them fast!
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09-01-2011, 02:31 PM | #16 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2008
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ccw tail down funnels are exactly how I determine my gain settings whenever I am setting up a helicopter. I bump up the gain until tight ccw tail down funnels start to make the tail wag, then I bump the gain down just until the wag stops. now your gain is perfect
So yes there is more of a tendency for the tail to blow out whenever the wind is hitting the left side the boom (looking from standing behind the heli) including tail down ccw funnels or nose down cw funnels. However with a well set up tail and gain settings on your gyro this should not be a problem. I do tail down ccw funnels that are nearly vertical at high speed and a tight radius and never have a problem with the tail. |
09-30-2011, 02:31 PM | #18 (permalink) |
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I just setup my swash/radio so that forward is the side of the heli and paint a nose on the side of the heli. Nice and easy then . Seriously though that is a nice write up. You did help me realize that doing a circuit and a funnel are essentially the same movement on the right stick but just rotated.
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10-04-2011, 09:02 AM | #19 (permalink) |
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After many, many hours on the sim I can consistently get into nose-in funnels in both cw and ccw. cw was harder for me for some reason. I'm am *just* beginning to try them with in the field with my T-Rex 450 Sport. Very exciting putting 'skin in the game.' I'm working on tail-in, which is a tad harder for me, but doable. MAN did this take a long time to learn. What made it click was getting a handle on aileron control, though it's all tightly interconnected. Rudder and elevator had to happen too, as did the relationship to collective. I'm curious how this maneuver compares in difficulty to others. Also, is this considered a 3D technique? Thanks for the help.
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10-04-2011, 10:11 AM | #20 (permalink) |
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Join Date: May 2008
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It's not that it's a difficult maneuvar. It is after all just a regular circuit. It's like anything else with helis it just takes time to get used to the inputs needed to get it done right. Once you get them you wont find them difficult at all, it's the steep learning curve that is the fun part.
And yes a well performed funnel has just as much place in a good routine as the very complicated maneuvars. Well performed circuits and funnels is a test of how well the pilot can control the heli. |
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