Dahl and competing. The state of competition in the US

[GJacksonF3N]

Anyone know why Kyle Dahl was out of XFC this year? I really looked forward to seeing him compete.

[el guapo]

I can't speak for him, but others said it was too close to heli masters.

[dahld]

I found it interesting that the promoters of the event have showed for months on their web site that Kyle was a confirmed participant in 2014. But Kyle never submitted an application indicating he would be competing, and not once did the organizers ever contact Kyle in 2014 asking him if he was going to attend. Makes ya wonder why they said he was coming, when it was more than clear to them he wasn't competing.

Anyways, there are reasons he chose not to participate this year, but it had nothing to do with the timing of Heli-Masters. Unfortunately, there is no way to discus the actual reasons without stepping on people's toes, and likely causing a bunch of hate and discontent.

So, best to just leave it alone. Maybe if things get fixed in the future, he'll return to it.

(-: Dave Dahl

[RyanW]

^^^ LIKE !!!

[OnTheSnap]

My own private observations - XFC as an event has _REALLY_ gone down hill in the past few years. Heli's are treated second class to fixed wing. The event is poorly promoted. On and on. This year the participation was really different too. . Really there should have been a "masters" and an "advanced" like Helimasters. Years ago the field was stacked, and even the LCQ guys were ultra caliber. I think guys that are not at a Nick/Jamie/Ben level should still have a chance to win competing against "Advanced" class competitors.

Beyond that, the USA competition scene is totally failing when compared to Europe. I don't know why this is, but I think it has something to do with the way clubs are structured and new pilots nurtured in Europe. Where in the US, it seems way less likely for a youth to get serious about the hobby. So now there are several competitions world wide worth going to. And XFC is not one of them. IMO.

I'm looking at the new crop of young pilots in Europe, and it's filled with insane talent and promise. A few like Jacob Gitin are emerging from the US. But the US is a pretty short list compared to Europe. I'm worried.

Something different about our RC culture that seems to have at least the competition scene in a decline.

Another thing is event participation. You watch Helimasters videos, or even fun flies in Europe. The crowd is loud and having a good time interacting with the pilots. The Zone is awesome. You watch XFC videos, or typical fun fly demos, and not much is going on. Save spot light flights which seemed to get the most participation from the crowd, but now this is banned too.

[futurase]

All the big name airplane guys quit the XFC years ago. NOT to take anything away from the young man that won the plane side this year. GREAT flying but he is not in the league of guys like Mark Leesberg and Quique and etc that compete at the Tuscon Shootout. XFC is he kidde pool in comparison....

XFC has been marred with politics and strife about since it began. I like Onthesnap I agree I'd love to see a REAL competition scene arise in the states...

[hemp]

Originally Posted by futurase

I like Onthesnap I agree I'd love to see a REAL competition scene arise in the states...

Competing is hard. Takes a lot of money and a major time commitment. It's quite possible the issue is just that the money isn't available (at least in the U.S.) to provide the necessary support for upcoming talent. I think the timing of the economy tanking and fun fly culture rising while competition culture declined was not merely coincidental.

Also interesting that the culture has shifted to a place where it's assumed only young kids have a shot at a title. Of course that's a little self-serving since I'm far from a young kid, but I think any contest that is more mental than physical has a pretty good leveling effect. It's just a question of being able/willing to put in the time. Though obviously there are advantages when you don't have to worry about job, mortgage, family, etc. But being old has advantages too, like not having to rely on sponsors to fund training.

I would love to see some "older" guys get serious about competing and stop acting like has-beens-that-never-were. May be just what the U.S. needs to spice up the competition scene.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by hemp

Competing is hard. Takes a lot of money and a major time commitment. It's quite possible the issue is just that the money isn't available (at least in the U.S.) to provide the necessary support for upcoming talent. I think the timing of the economy tanking and fun fly culture rising while competition culture declined was not merely coincidental.

Also interesting that the culture has shifted to a place where it's assumed only young kids have a shot at a title. Of course that's a little self-serving since I'm far from a young kid, but I think any contest that is more mental than physical has a pretty good leveling effect. It's just a question of being able/willing to put in the time. Though obviously there are advantages when you don't have to worry about job, mortgage, family, etc. But being old has advantages too, like not having to rely on sponsors to fund training.

I would love to see some "older" guys get serious about competing and stop acting like has-beens-that-never-were. May be just what the U.S. needs to spice up the competition scene.

I've flown with some competition level pilots, and reality is as you age the speed and processing power of your brain changes. Experience doesn't pay off as much as it does in say golf where you can compensate with a better short game with feel around the greens.

Also flying helis at the highest level is closer to learning another language then a typical sport. Younger brains are much better at learning new languages than adults.

So you may be able to do a full reversing kaos after a year of crazy hard work (while the young talent did it in a couple weeks), but then you still couldn't do the other 100 maneuvers younger pilots learned in the same time.

In Europe they have the "funny class" for 38 and older. So that's where they think the cutoff is.

Oh and there was a year (2010 I think) where Curtis dedicated himself to competition again. It didn't go too well.

Sure someone can come along and break all the rules. But meanwhile having seen young talent first hand and how rapidly it advances I have a good taste for reality and the limit of what older pilots can really accomplish.

[hemp]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I have a good taste for reality and the limit of what older pilots can really accomplish.

Gotta love a challenge.

Curtis is awesome, but a little past what I was considering "older" for these purposes. I was thinking more like mid-30s: Gen-X, not Greatest Generation . And of course there's a big difference between competing and winning HeliMasters. The majority of competitors in any sport/contest series never win a major event.

[HorizonHobbyFreak]

It would be interesting to have an event dived into age groups. 12-17 18-30 31+. This was the rising pilots can compete againt other pilots of their type, instead of competing against pilots who have been competing for years. And then there is the experience group of people 18-30, people who are still young, and have all the talent needed to win competitions. And then there is the "older" section for people who are older (but not nessecarely old).

[HorizonHobbyFreak]

It would be interesting to have an event divided into age groups. 12-17 18-30 31+. This was the rising pilots can compete againt other pilots of their type, instead of competing against pilots who have been competing for years. And then there is the experience group of people 18-30, people who are still young, and have all the talent needed to win competitions. And then there is the "older" section for people who are older (but not nessecarely old).

[hemp]

I don't think age groups are needed because I don't think they're relevant. Time on the sticks and quality of practice matter far more than age (to a point, obviously).

Competitions in most racing fields are divided up by equipment and by skill level so you have novice and expert groups for each class of machine. If I were starting a local competition it would be modeled that way, including a class for 500-size and below to really open the door for people without significant resources to get involved.

Local competitions are where upcoming talent cuts their teeth. From there the ones who stand out are identified and encouraged (with money and training) to compete at higher levels. That's how you ensure the continuous development of world-class competitors.

[MrMel]

Originally Posted by hemp

I don't think age groups are needed because I don't think they're relevant. Time on the sticks and quality of practice matter far more than age (to a point, obviously).

I disagree, totally

Helimasters 2 years ago there was how many pilots >25?
If i remember correctly it was exactly zero
Not sure there was anyone top pilot above 20 actually

I have zero chance competing against someone half my age, if we start at same level they will out-learn me in 1:10 ratio or more.

[futurase]

I am 38 and I consider myself a young guy, but Fredrik is right as bad as I have to admit it.

When I started helis 16 years ago Curtis had no one who was in same universe as him. NONE. ASK anyone that has been around as long as I have. Curtis will tell you point blank the same exact thing as Fredrik.

All you new guys that have been in the hobby for like 2-4 years never knew Curtis when he was the king of the hill. He wasn't just king of the hill he invented the hill. Time catches EVERYONE eventually...

Guys 1 month in now are doing backwards hurricanes and piro flips. It was not always so my friends. #1 the equipment we had couldn't do that for the most part. #2. I train new guys all the time. I have trained LOTS and LOTS of guys. #3. The younger the guy the quicker they take to it. Absolutely no question. Get a guy over 50 that has never flown R/C. Less than 1 out of 100 ever even learn to do much more than hover. It's true.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

I am sure you are right.

Back in the day, with neither a quality useful SIM nor cheap readily available high quality kit....

I think the quality of the SIM is something which cannot be underestimated as all the young guys use them as often as real helicopters.

I think cheap crashing is handy, too. That hasn't been around more than a few years?

Sent from an undisclosed location in the future.

[futurase]

Back in the day I learned on a $1,000 Robbe-Schluter Futura SE. Align and all the stuff out now had never been thought of. I actually had a sim but it looked like a Atari game almost. lol Worthless....

[el guapo]

divisions based on hardware and skill level is very common for most motor sports. and its probably a good model for us. every profesional race car driver started out on go carts.

we are missing entry level competion with park class helicopters. possibly a 130X or 450 class. where known moves are performed. the different skill levels can be broken up by the required known moves. Completion of one skill level grants acces to the next.

I'd propose 4 classes:
begineer, sport, expert, adavanced and Pro.

for example:
begineers class: would demonstrate take off, tail in hover, figure 8 and a nose in hover and landing
sport class: would demonstrate all orentations and a backward figure 8. inverted tail in hover.
Expert: inverted flight, tic tocs, piro flips, funnels, auto rotation (not with a 130X)
Advanced: piro loops, rev piroflips, inverted autos (not with a 130X)
Pro: everything.

[KSHeli]

Originally Posted by futurase

Guys 1 month in now are doing backwards hurricanes and piro flips. It was not always so my friends. #1 the equipment we had couldn't do that for the most part. #2. I train new guys all the time. I have trained LOTS and LOTS of guys. #3. The younger the guy the quicker they take to it. Absolutely no question. Get a guy over 50 that has never flown R/C. Less than 1 out of 100 ever even learn to do much more than hover. It's true.

I met a guy last year at IRCHA, his 10 year old would get on the sim, fly then change the blades they using, telling him which blades were better and why. I'm almost 60 about all that I can tell after two years is that the heli is in the air, :, but then I haven't flown anything except cheap blades, as of now.
I think older individuals seem to value the heli more and don't want to just fly, not repair.

[hemp]

Originally Posted by MrMel

I have zero chance competing against someone half my age, if we start at same level they will out-learn me in 1:10 ratio or more.

I'm not sure how old you are Fredrik, or what your physical circumstances are, so I can't argue that. I certainly respect your wisdom and all that you've done for the hobby. But at 34 I am confident that I can learn just as fast as a 17 year old, or at least close enough that I can make up the difference. I started flying almost exactly two years ago and am working on polishing my piro funnels and locking in piro loops (reversing all). "Simple" maneuvers like hurricanes and funnels (all orientations) were picked up months ago and I continue to refine but they're more or less automatic.

I didn't intend to make it personal, and I'm not bragging about my natural abilities; as I have none. What I do have is natural determination and a will to compete (otherwise known as "talent"). I watch video of top pilots doing their best flights and I spend the next few weeks trying to pick up and master maneuvers that I hadn't seen or tried before. Obviously they remain head and shoulders beyond anything I can do right now, but I'm confident that with enough time I could catch up, so long as I don't give in to the apparently common belief that I can't do it because I'm "too old". If they continue to progress while I'm busy catching up then it's possible I would never be at their level, but that's assuming they continue to progress. The reality is that the better you get, the harder it is to improve, which is how people are able to catch up.

It's surprising to me that we've become so convinced that exceptional performance is the result of youth and/or natural ability that we just give up trying (for all pursuits, not just helis.) There was a time (before my generation) when hard work was viewed as the main ingredient to excellence in anything.

Trying to compete with today's youth by practicing only on real models is a fool's endeavor. They are learning on the simulator so we must also. I spend two to three hours a night on the sim unless circumstances prevent it with a goal of over 1000 hours on the year. That's in addition to as much time during the day flying real models as I can manage, but with a full time job and a family, that time is harder to come by. Anyone doing less than that has no room to complain about the young guys progressing faster, because those young guys are putting in the time. The few who aren't but do just have natural ability are of no competitive concern - they wash out once it gets hard and are content to be demo pilots.

Obviously I'm drawing a lot of conclusions with very little hard data. So take it for what you will. I stand behind my belief that hard work always wins out over natural ability. The ones who win major competitions have the extremely rare combination of both. I'm not in that group, and I'm fine with it. I do not think I was in that group when I was 15 either.

[hemp]

Originally Posted by KSHeli

I think older individuals seem to value the heli more and don't want to just fly, not repair.

I do think there's some truth that as we age we become less naturally competitive - probably a result of changing hormones, plus a realization with wisdom that there are more important things in life and death than whether or not you flew a model helicopter better than someone else.