ALIGN 430L 3550kv VS Helimax 2580kv

[fedex]

Just bought the 430L, figured I'd see phenomenal performance increase. I'm using a 11t pinion verses the 14t on my 2580. I noticed the 430L starts up alot softer than the 2580. But I'm not getting a big performance increase. In fact its about the same, but less torque. Going by just the feel. I don't have rpm gauge or anything, I ran two packs today on the 430L, wind gusting around 11 mph so they say, I think its more like 20 mph.. But anyway, 2 packs, 2 15c 2150mah and 2 20C 2150 mah (DN power). I ran my throttle curve almost at a flat 100%, 95% at 0 degree pitch. I was kind of disappointed, I figured the power of this motor would rip my stock wood blades off Guess I'll change out the pinion and try for more performance, the weight of this heli scares me. I did get a nano sec motor shutdown. I figure the 25 amp even with external bec, is just to insuffiecient. I'll be replacing the esc with a 35amp I guess. when I change to the next pinion. Figure I'll try the 12T pinion and see what happens, more to come.

Round 2, Well, I don't have a 12T pinion that will fit. I figured what the hell, I tried the 13T pinion. Now I see the difference, headspeed is scary fast for the stock wood blades (289 mm ?) . Running idle up at 80% zero pitch. I could see the flight times go down drastically.. OMG.. I was getting easy 6 minutes on these 2150's. Now its down to 3 minutes doing figure 8's. How will I get my flight times back? I'm not sure what to do. Why doesn't align make a 12t pinion? I found a 12t thats not align, but it should work (http://www.readyheli.com/Ikarus_12t...50_p/67611.htm), guess I'll make the order. BTW, I tried this with the stock 25amp esc, no motor cuts this time for the 3 minutes I flew. Only a few hard climbouts tho.

After flying a bit more with the 11t pinion. I'm still getting crappy flight times. I'm thinking this bird is just too heavy for the motor, and that I even had more torque with the stock motor. Only solution I can think of is a ccpm carbon fiber conversion frame. That would take off 50grams of weight, would that get my flight times back up to 6 minutes?

[Gizmo6035]

The stock blades are likely too short to get any real performance out of the 430L.
I run a 430L with a set of 325pro woods on a with an 11T pinion or 315Pro woods on 12T pinion and a Phoenix 35 in governor mode. I get 6.5 min with a safety margin on current used (1550 mAh average recharge) on 15C 2100 apex batteries.
My heli is a MX400pro with all the aluminum head mods except grips which are Trex aluminum , it weighs in at 1.86lb (843.6g)
I made a helimax 12T pinion fit by drilling it out to 3.17mm. but you need a lathe to get the hole centered perfectly, the out of round main gear causes enough problems without an off center pinion too.

[fedex]

Originally Posted by Gizmo6035

The stock blades are likely too short to get any real performance out of the 430L.
I run a 430L with a set of 325pro woods on a with an 11T pinion or 315Pro woods on 12T pinion and a Phoenix 35 in governor mode. I get 6.5 min with a safety margin on current used (1550 mAh average recharge) on 15C 2100 apex batteries.
My heli is a MX400pro with all the aluminum head mods except grips which are Trex aluminum , it weighs in at 1.86lb (843.6g)
I made a helimax 12T pinion fit by drilling it out to 3.17mm. but you need a lathe to get the hole centered perfectly, the out of round main gear causes enough problems without an off center pinion too.

So I take it your frame is the stock aluminum one? You think I'll see a big difference in flight time using the 325's? I have a set, but I found it hard to get them tracking, ntm the fact I need the extended boom, I guess you have done that mod? I ordered the 12t pinion from ready heli, I just hope its the same bore. Do you think my 25amp esc has anything to do with the flight time or efficiency of the motor. I'm running a parkbec, and the esc is not even hot after any of the flights today. I've done some flips, and climbouts, but thats it.

Just a few more questions.
1. Any align xl tail tube/belt should work for 325mm blades?
2. Will I need those Aluminum grips to make the blades track?
3. Any other modifications to make the trex aluminum grips work?
4. Did you use the trex aluminum grip bearings or the mx400 plastic grip bearings?
5. Stock feathering shaft doesn't need to be replaced?
Thanks for your input. BTW, I'm have like 12 volts left in the battery after one flight. Flight times are low, but the drop in umph was decreasing pretty bad after 3 minutes. The 20C packs are relatively new so I'm thinking its not the batterys that are causing me pain.

happy 3d

bo

[Gizmo6035]

So I take it your frame is the stock aluminum one?
Just a few more questions.
1. Any align xl tail tube/belt should work for 325mm blades?
2. Will I need those Aluminum grips to make the blades track?
3. Any other modifications to make the trex aluminum grips work?
4. Did you use the trex aluminum grip bearings or the mx400 plastic grip bearings?
5. Stock feathering shaft doesn't need to be replaced?

Yes I am still running the aluminum frame and just switched to the extended boom.
I started with the plastic grips and upgraded to aluminum later, both come with all the bearings required just make sure to check part number matches the ones in the link below
I buy most of my parts from GrandRC so I will provide links to the items you are asking about that I am using, you can get part numbers and order them from anyplace that stocks them from there.

these grips work fine, the aluminum are tougher but not required to obtain proper tracking http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/13893

you need this feathering spindle to use the grips http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/2351

here are the belt and booms http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/14141
http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/14140

you can run the 315 woods or pro woods and not need to extend the boom.
you can use the helimax blade spacers on the align blades and not need to change the grips, just cut off the small bushings that go into the blades at the screw hole end, a drop of supper glue will prevent the spacers from rotating

[Gizmo6035]

check out this thread comes with great pics of the align grip install on an MX400 starting with post #82

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...=478052&page=6

[fedex]

Thanks for the advice. I'll drop by the hobbytown and see what I can dig up tomorrow. I have a set of 325 pro woods, but when I first got them, I broke the spacers trying to remove them for my 400 blade grips. So I chunked them and installed mx400 stock blade spacers/shims. They are superglued and screwed pretty good, I doubt I will be able to remove them, even if I do I'd be screwed into having to buy blades because I need the trex shims. Guess I'll be buying more blades as well

[fedex]

Thank you very much my friend, I'm doing better than before now, I'm getting 7 Minutes on an older pack! At first I tried without the trex grips, as I figured tracking wasn't right, I didn't adjust anything at the time, I had no faith in the 400 grips, I replaced the grips.. Tracking was dead on.. No adjustment required. AWESOME... Running the 325's with the 11T.. Great combination! Tail boom/belt was replaced as well. I was doing loops and flips and didn't even notice I wasn't in idle up.. HAHA.. I love it.. Thanks.

Bo

[Gizmo6035]

You are most welcome glad to hear your flight time/performance is improved.
I see by your second photo you are running the stock aluminum tail rotor hub and landing in the grass, DO NOT stand directly in line with that tail rotor!
I have had 3 fail and my friend I fly with has had at least 2 fail, blade, grip and all goes flying. I have replaced the aluminum with this steel unit, for 5 bucks it is an excellent investment for both safety and strength. This is a bolt on item, no mods involved.
http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/22200
the photo is the wrong part but the details further down the page are accurate.
I see you have switched to the TRex flybar and paddles, are you running the 220mm bar? if not and you want faster cyclic response try the 220 and a set of 6g paddles (part no. HS1191)

[fedex]

Originally Posted by Gizmo6035

You are most welcome glad to hear your flight time/performance is improved.
I see by your second photo you are running the stock aluminum tail rotor hub and landing in the grass, DO NOT stand directly in line with that tail rotor!
I have had 3 fail and my friend I fly with has had at least 2 fail, blade, grip and all goes flying. I have replaced the aluminum with this steel unit, for 5 bucks it is an excellent investment for both safety and strength. This is a bolt on item, no mods involved.
http://www.grandrc.com/inc/sdetail/22200
the photo is the wrong part but the details further down the page are accurate.
I see you have switched to the TRex flybar and paddles, are you running the 220mm bar? if not and you want faster cyclic response try the 220 and a set of 6g paddles (part no. HS1191)

Not sure what the size the flybar is, It says AGNH1118 on the pack. Everything seems to be much more responsive and crisp. I usually don't land in the grass unless I have too. I was trimming it out and having to land pretty fast, I usually try and land on a welcome mat. Which is about a foot from where I stand. My hovering is dead on right side up, but I've hesitated to hold it inverted so far. Another hurdle of mine. Tail blades definatley look dangerous the way one screw holds them without a locking nut or anything. But I'm very satisified with this motor now. Awesome headspeed, and the blades really do make a difference. I'll have to re-learn everything

[Gizmo6035]

Not sure what the size the flybar is, It says AGNH1118 on the pack

here is the part number for the other one, HS1184 Flybar Rod/220mm

[fedex]

Originally Posted by Gizmo6035

here is the part number for the other one, HS1184 Flybar Rod/220mm

This things a handful as it is. I think I'll have to re-adjust the gyro for this motor. Tail doesn't seem to be holding like it used too. keeps wanting to fly backwards too.. I'll either have to compensate on the trim or move the battery inside the canopy(more to the front of the heli). Almost lost it a couple times doing flips. They looked more like cork screws, almost flew into a tree a couple times too.. This motor is fast, especially for my small front yard. The 12T and 315's might be the right thing for me.

[fedex]

Originally Posted by Gizmo6035

The stock blades are likely too short to get any real performance out of the 430L.
I run a 430L with a set of 325pro woods on a with an 11T pinion or 315Pro woods on 12T pinion and a Phoenix 35 in governor mode. I get 6.5 min with a safety margin on current used (1550 mAh average recharge) on 15C 2100 apex batteries.
My heli is a MX400pro with all the aluminum head mods except grips which are Trex aluminum , it weighs in at 1.86lb (843.6g)
I made a helimax 12T pinion fit by drilling it out to 3.17mm. but you need a lathe to get the hole centered perfectly, the out of round main gear causes enough problems without an off center pinion too.

you said 315 woods with 12t pinion and 325mm with 11t pinion. Which combination do you get better flight times and performance?

[Gizmo6035]

last week I was getting 7 min flights and using about 1600 mAh with the 325 and 11T combo. You can try the 325s on the 12T but I would try a conservative flight of no more than 5 min to see how your temp and recharge look and adjust from there.
Performance is better in terms of less bog and slightly faster response on the 315 blades, likely due more to the increased head speed on the 12T
Flight times seem to be up with the 325s on 11T

[fedex]

Originally Posted by Gizmo6035

last week I was getting 7 min flights and using about 1600 mAh with the 325 and 11T combo. You can try the 325s on the 12T but I would try a conservative flight of no more than 5 min to see how your temp and recharge look and adjust from there.
Performance is better in terms of less bog and slightly faster response on the 315 blades, likely due more to the increased head speed on the 12T
Flight times seem to be up with the 325s on 11T

http://www.readyheli.com/Ikarus_12t...50_p/67611.htm

This pinion is a perfect match for the align motor. I'm just waiting on my 315mm blades at the moment. I've tried the 12t pinion with 325's and I exp more motor cut outs/ glitching, I think the 25amp is just not cutting it. I'll try the 315's and see if the 25amp handles it any better. I just noticed that the helimax 25amp esc says 6-10c. Its been handling alot more than that. 15-20C batterys. Just hope it can handle it alot better than my checking account.

[jeff250]

I have the align 430l 3550 and 11t, and thought I,d have insane climb out , but it is weak and I just crashed as I posted in your other forum. I have the stock mx400 blades, anyway I'd like to know what you come up with throttle and pitch curves and if your running in governor mode. I running in fixed with endpoints with a cc35 speed controller, from what I have read in another forum another person wasn't getting much power and someone told him to run in governor high mode . After he set it that way, he said it came alive . I haven't tried it yet , and have to rebuild mine. Probably put align blades on it. The newer software is suppose to make it work better too.

A guy in the club had the new trex se with the stock align esc and 430l 3550, and it had great power , then he put his castle creations phoenix 35 on it and he said the motor was a dog and went back to the align esc. It may work with the new firmware but I didnt get to it yet. Hope I can get the power out of it with my setup or someone can tell,e me some info.

My flight times are also low, I think I was looking for ten minutes , mine starts to get sluggish at 7 minutes with a 2100 thunder power. The guys with the trex se look like they fly longer and he runs a headspeed at 2200 or 2300 and can flip and roll . I,m running at 2400 and it has a slow roll rate. If start looping it gets sluggish real fast.

Jeff

setup mx400 pro stock except alum. center hub, 430l motor 3550, esc cc35 and park bec.

[Gizmo6035]

I'd like to know what you come up with throttle and pitch curves and if your running in governor mode.

I am running a CC35 in Governor High and have not attempted any other modes.
My throttle curve is a flat line at 87% of the maximum speed the motor pinion can produce, I attempted to run at the reccomended 80% Castle calls for and the motor did not perform well at all. Pitch is -10 to +10 with zero pitch set at mid stick,
I have limited my cyclic pitch to 6 derees for now.
The MX400 does not have the fastest cyclic speed around but you can help it along by switching to the Align 220mm flybar and a set of 6g paddles and cranking up the head speed to around 2400 rpm.

I've tried the 12t pinion with 325's and I exp more motor cut outs/ glitching, I think the 25amp is just not cutting it.

You need a 35 amp ESC and a Park BEC helps reduce the controler temp I run the 5v but am thinking I can get better cyclic with the 6v

[fedex]

I think the ccpm upgrade should shave enough weight to make it a little faster, the cf one. But its fast with the helimax motor. With the stock Helimax 2580kv motor I ran probably 7 minute average.

Mx400 Pro
Align 430L 3550kv
25Amp helimax esc
stock all metal hde frame
hs65 & 81
gy401
4 DNpower 2150's 15c & 20c

Flight times (mild 3d/stall turns/backflips/figure 8)

11T 315MM averaging 5 - 6 minutes (guess)
11T 325MM averaging 5 - 7 minutes
12T 325MM averaging 5 - 6 minutes
12T 315MM averaging 5 - 7 minutes (I like this configuration)

Usually 11.6 to 11.8 volts remaining in the battery. But I'm still fine tuning it. Hopefully I can tweak it out enough to get 10 Minutes myself, heck I'd be happy with 8 minutes

I installed the 35amp Align esc, and tried the 315 blades once, still some tracking changes needed. I also just recieved my entire frame cf ccpm kit, I'll see if the flight times change after the conversion. Its funny this little align 35 amp sounds like a pacman game when i start it up. When I tested it, I pumped the cyclic a bit and pushed the amperage, did a few hard climbouts as well. No motor cut outs. WOohoo.. I figured the helimax was just too insuffiecient, now I'm broke, good thing for tax returns. More on flight times with the 315 blades + 12T pinion and stock metal hde frame after weather cooperates.

Conclusion:

Stock Helimax 2580kv great motor, seems like it suites this heli well because of its great torque, long flight times.

430L 3550kv more speed than torque, more amperage draw, stock heavy frame needs more torque due to the weight, the higher power output eats my 3s 2150 mah alive.

I'll be installing carbon fiber ccpm frame very soon, as I have two ccpm full cf frames one from helimax and one is MJB, I've already noticed the helimax cf frame is thicker and probably a little less flemsy, flight times should change after I lighten it up 50 grams.