warp 360

[Hawk404]

Originally Posted by Tachead

I agree with you, I like the often lower price of polymer replacement parts. I don't know about them being overly uniform though unless they are CNC machined after moulding. Injection moulded polymer and the like actually doesn't usually hold a very tight tolerance due to it warping when cooled exc. That's why cast main gears aren't very perfect and will often have different gear mesh throughout the revolution. And, why are you buying taps and easy outs? If you get an improperly machined aluminum part, Compass, Gaui, and most other manufactures will promptly replace it so I don't know why you would start tapping it yourself or even worry about that. Now crashing and bending it is a different story. That is one thing that is nice about polymer, it usually either breaks or it doesn't. Sometimes the only way to tell that an aluminum part is tweaked or bent is to swap it out. But, it has a lot of other advantages over polymer. Which one is better? It all depends on the application I think. I like polymer tail blade grips for their better vibration dampening and because the tail can take a beating and it is nice that it doesn't bend. I also like polymer for tail fin mounts, boom mounts, and landing skids. But, for almost everything else I prefer aluminum for its extra rigidity, better cold resistance, stronger and more durable threads, heat expansion for removing screws and bearings, and of course bling is not a bad thing either.

Thanks for keeping it constructive!

My observation with FRP is that it doesn't really benefit from post-mold work with respect to fasteners which is to say; if the screw hole isn't deep enough the simple act of using it will make it deep enough. Granted I've run across some really sorry screws but, in general, an FRP part is very nearly incapable of providing the sort of heartburn that an aluminum part can provide relatively easily if not produced nearly perfectly.

With respect to CNC aluminum going off spec I am guilty of invoking non-RC heli experiences. I haven't had the problem on my Warp or for that matter any heli but I have had it on control module parts and have read plenty about it happening on the Warp and, of course, numerous others.

In process engineering one can define a certain level of acceptance - say, 90% of ideal which would work for everyone and works well if 100% of production hits this 90% goal. This is actually closing in on 6 Sigma.

In stark contrast, if anything under 90% results in customer heartburn it is counter productive to produce such that 80% of production is above 90% of ideal while 20% requires remediation. Many will be insanely happy but the small number with heartburn will suck profit out of the bottom line like a vampire on crack.

This has clearly gone on in RC helis and any number of other niche markets. It went on with the Warp. How can I state that with certainty?

Simple. Some group of people report an issue. The reports are consistent enough that random chance is ruled out. Another group of people report that they didn't have the issue.

Here's the irony: the group reporting that they didn't have the issue have, in fact, proven that parts variability has exceeded standardized norms. The intuitive surmise would be that everyone reporting a non-issue would be negating reports of those that had reported an issue.

In actual point of fact, it reinforces the idea that something has gone horribly wrong in QC because the only way that parts which are builder independent could produce such disparate results is if the parts themselves were going off the rails thus producing two or more configurations of finished product. It's simple ISO 9001 mathematics.

One of the best indicators that something has gone horribly wrong: the very existence of "I haven't had that issue" reports in the context of builder-independent variations.

Naturally the qualifier "builder independent" is important. If a builder or parts selection can produce the variance then the process becomes more challenging. In the case of the Warp or similar 450s consider the tail servo - given an option of both micro and mini, compounded by a plethora of available sources very little could be ascertained from reports involving anything connected to a tail servo. In contrast, to invoke a matter I am familiar with, a report of a too long tail boom accompanied by a report that the tail boom length is spot on can only mean a limited number of things.

1. Tail booms are showing up in different lengths.
2. Tail belts are showing up in different lengths.
3. Frame drilling patterns are showing up in different configurations.
4. CNC aluminum parts aren't uniform
5. We're building helis in Bizzaro, Texas.

The idea that Mr. HadAnIssue and Mr. I didn't have an issue got the same parts should be well and truly off the table. To suggest otherwise would invoke voodoo.

Hence my guiding light regarding RC Helis, Elevator control modules or motorcycle clutches remains pretty much the same: if I see more than one "I didn't have that issue" in response to the third or fourth report of the issue - there's an issue.

Logic and mathematics prohibit any other option.




Edited to add: none of the above applies to the current Warp. Or any 450 with which I am familiar. This is about aluminum and FRP and field reports and ISO9001. Probably still on topic but NOT bashing the Warp.

[Jmann841]

All I am saying is both helis are extremely capable with the right setup and pilot. The main difference I see is TT vs. Belt. They are some minor flying character differences I am sure but that is the the case between any two models.

Both have incredible performance for a 450 class. I do not think the plastic parts effect the performance of the X3 as this is only one example of this air frame doing some insane 3D. I don't think there is anything the X3 can do that the 360 can not and vice versa in terms of performance due to design.

If I knew what I knew now about the two airframes it would be a very tough decision deciding between the two. I am not bashing the 360 was just comparing the two and trying to figure out the positives and negatives.

From a consumer who does not have as much experience as many of you this is what I see as the major differences.

1. Cost
2. Noise
3. TT Vs. Belt (Tied into noise)
4. Crash cost
5. Looks
6. DFC vs. Tradional washout head

Of this. All of those are personal preference except Cost and Crash cost (similar between the two but after reading through the crash cost threads in the X3 forum and here seems like crash costs are typically lower on the X3. This is by no means a scientific study so may not be true, however, just an observation)

I would be glad to own either. The 360 seems like a hell of a great heli.

Gaui X3 Ircha 2013 Jc Zankl (3 min 16 sec)

[Tachead]

I am not exactly sure about what you are getting at(maybe you could explain your point? Maybe I am tired here but, I don't get it) but, any issues you have with either a FRP or aluminum part will quickly be rectified by your dealer(unless it is Hobbyking lol sorry couldn't resist) and you will be given a replacement part. So, from an end user(heli buyers) perspective this really doesn't matter. As long as you buy from a reputable company, and both Gaui and Compass are, you will be taken care of and any bad parts will be replaced free of charge. Of course we all appreciate good quality control though as issues are still a pain.

This was in response to Hawks post.

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[Tachead]

Originally Posted by Jmann841

All I am saying is both helis are extremely capable with the right setup and pilot. The main difference I see is TT vs. Belt. They are some minor flying character differences I am sure but that is the the case between any two models.

Both have incredible performance for a 450 class. I do not think the plastic parts effect the performance of the X3 as this is only one example of this air frame doing some insane 3D. I don't think there is anything the X3 can do that the 360 can not and vice versa in terms of performance due to design.

If I knew what I knew now about the two airframes it would be a very tough decision deciding between the two. I am not bashing the 360 was just comparing the two and trying to figure out the positives and negatives.

From a consumer who does not have as much experience as many of you this is what I see as the major differences.

1. Cost
2. Noise
3. TT Vs. Belt (Tied into noise)
4. Crash cost
5. Looks
6. DFC vs. Tradional washout head

Of this. All of those are personal preference except Cost and Crash cost (similar between the two but after reading through the crash cost threads in the X3 forum and here seems like crash costs are typically lower on the X3. This is by no means a scientific study so may not be true, however, just an observation)


Gaui X3 Ircha 2013 Jc Zankl - YouTube

The plastic parts do have an effect though. They are lighter which gives the X3 the lighter weigh(probably the main reason it is good at smack. Lighter weight = faster directional changes). But, they also add more flex to the heli in more then one place as they are not as rigid as aluminum and CF which takes away from precision, probably why the Warp is more precise. They are also inhearently weaker and prone to fatigue, especially in the cold, which can cause more failures and damage in crash. Plastics also have weak threads that wear out much faster from fasteners going in and out for repairs exc which lowers their durability/service life. Polymers only really excel in a few applications and I personally think those were exceeded on the first model of the X3.

A new all metal version of the X3 is coming out. It would be a much better comparison to the Warp imo. It puts it on the same playing field then we can compare. I look forward to its release. Luckily a lot of the aluminum upgrade parts are already available and sold separately if current owners want to upgrade.



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[Jmann841]

I am curious to see what the cost of the new X3 will be... Hopefully they have other colors besides the "Gold" edition. I think it looks a little tachy... Will be very interesting to see the flight characteristic differences between the plastic vs. metal X3 if someone has the same exact setup on both and only differences are the CNC parts.

[Jmann841]

If I had to guess though, the precision differences of the two machines is mainly due to the FBL Head.

The issues with plastic and cold have been brought up a few times now but I have not seen any complaints in the X3 forum of plastic breaking or being brittle and quite a few guys are flying in the winter. It is something I never considered as I live in HI. Also, does cold effect the belt and main gear of the Warp?

Lastly, the Main gear on the X3 is all plastic, yet, there have been issues with people who have used the Aluminum motor pinions wearing out. I think that is a testament to the strength and quality of the plastic Gaui used. The aluminum pinion is wearing out instead of the plastic gear! (Could be poor aluminum but most likely a testament to the quality of plastic)

[Jeff_Barrett]

No, it's a testament to how bad an idea it was to use aluminum for pinion.

Steel pinions have been released since to correct this.

[RudeRebel]

So I have both, although I have not flown my Warp as a result of issues which are unrelated to the heli.

I live in a winter climate and have flown in frigid temperatures since Dec (most of the winter had been below -10C, although I did not fly when it was below -5C. When I do fly, because of the cold, I would say I fly more cautious as a result of the snow and ice so I have not crashed this winter. This being said, the X3 skid has snapped on me (fortunately just as I had finished landing it, and blades spooled down). Skid snapped in three places, with one of the pieces landing 20ft away, and another never to be found. The entire left side of the landing skid just snapped due to cold. Remember, the heli was already landed at this point with blades almost completely stopped and an ever-so-slight neg pitch. It had been outside for about 30 mins at that point.

X3 flies great, although I have it on a very tame set up right now (will be changing over within the next couple weeks for more aggressive flying).
Warp: I prefer a belt driven tail, so the Warp has a head start for that reason alone. Funny thing is I hadn't realized how noisy my other helis are until spooling up the Warp for the first time.
Both were great builds, with the Gaui being slightly easier to build (and I can tell easier to repair, even though I've yet to do repair besides landing skid on X3). Both have good part quality. I definitely give the edge to the Compass for design. Warp is a unique design where everything was designed with purpose and for this heli. While I have had no issues with CG, those running smaller LiPos tend to complain of a heavy tail CG. I am running 6S Gens Ace 1400mah (260g) which I share between helis. X3 is an amalgamation of good design elements from its bigger brothers x5 and X7. The plastic does make the X3 feel light (have not actually weighed either heli yet). At 360 mm blades, the X3 is a pleasure to fly and with 325mm still flies well, but with added agility. My Warp has 350mm stock blades currently, but I have 350mm 3D spin blades waiting for flying season to truly begin. Because I have taken each heli in a different direction, flying performance will not be a fair compare for me. The X3 is my budget heli where I have kept my all in price, excluding batteries, to ~$520, and I have it set up to be tame. The Warp on the other hand, I've installed more expensive electronics and my expectation is that it will far exceed my limited flying ability. Plan for is to set it up for aggressive flying. The X3 was the heli I flew 90% of the time this winter and it hasn't let me down.

Jmann, not sure where you are looking, but there are plenty of 3D smack videos of the Warp.

[RudeRebel]

Oops

[Jmann841]

Awesome, thank you for the comparison!

Sorry, the video was just to show that both are extremely capable as Jeff posted a wrap doing smack 3d. There are tons of examples of both flying their blades off.

Sorry to hear about the skids!

[RudeRebel]

hey, I will take broken skids every time if that's all that breaks over the life of this thing To be fair, the day I broke that set, the ground, road, trees, you name it was covered in about an inch of ice as it was a day after we got hit with a massive ice storm that shut down our city. Some areas did not have power for up to 6 days. I was still in tweaking mode so the heli spent a bit of time on the ice throughout the session. It was very cold, and I could barely feel my fingers and toes by the time the skid snapped.

Anyway, while I feel it's a little hokey, I boiled the skid set that I have on my X3 now and they've been holding up pretty good. I can't say if boiling them helped, but it's been 3 months and I still fly in the cold so knock on wood.