How to: Calculate Correct TX Throttle Curves for Jive

[ScotY]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

you should never under any circumstances calibrate the throttle. when you use bail out the bottom end of the throttle is then turned into an area used for bail out only and enables a faster start up when you set your throttle hold percentage within this zone.

Can you tell me approximately what throttle percentage puts you in the bail out function? Using a Koby 55, if it matters.
Thanks!

[Magneto]

Koby dosent have Bailout.

[ScotY]

Okay, well can you tell me how one would set it up and how will it work if you do need to bail out of an auto?
Thanks!

[Wh1teAfr1can]

you cant it doesn't have the ability to do a fast restart like the jive and Kosmik. you could throttle hold and then click out of it but there is no telling if it will start back up fast enough my guess would be probably not because Kontronik ESC's have a nice smooth start up.

On any other ESC Kosmik and Jive. you set your thorrtle hold to i believe 25% throttle instead of 0% and this enables the fast start up. you then click into a secondary curve which shows the esc 0% if you complete the auto so you dont have a very fast spool up on the ground and strip your main gear.

[SkyRaptor]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

On any other ESC Kosmik and Jive. you set your thorrtle hold to i believe 25% throttle instead of 0% and this enables the fast start up.

Just to make your comments more precise, just the HeliJive has Bail Out feature.. The whole Jive line doesn't have BO feature.

Best Regards.

Alex.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

That's correct thanks for the correction

[john2kx]

I have made my first Kontronics purchase several weeks ago and have installed in a gaui x5. After tricking the ar7200bx, programming of the 100LV seemed pretty straight forward. I've been flying with a 57/60/65% TC and the governor seems to work really well.

In a effort to have a really slow head speed for hovering and light forward flight, I've tried to lower the head speed without dropping my TC below 50%. At this point, I was still over 2200 HS. I began lowering the TC 10% at a time until I got to 1770. The heli felt the way I wanted but my TC was at 23% to get the 1770HS.

I monitored one flight while hovering every minute or so and never felt the battery, motor or esc over being just barely warm to touch. I performed another 6 minute flight and still nothing abnormal while checking every minute or so.

I set the 100LV up per the instructions in the sticky section and believe it is done correctly. Using a 12x Tx, my throttle end points are at 100/100. The four batteries I'm using (purchased new for this heli) have about 20 flights each and all seem to have the same performance and charging characteristics.

I've seen the x5 hover as low as 1400HS for over 6 minutes of mild 3D using a YGE governor at 55%. So, I don't think I'm going after the impossible wanting to operate at 1770HS.

I don't want to continue flying this way after the number of warnings I've read about operating esc's too low (usually around 50%) from the threads I've read. But my temps seem fine, and high operating temperatures is what I thought was the concern when operated the way I am. I've got more than enough power in FFF, and in my 2 other flight modes, I'm at 2380 and 2480. I have not checked my HS near the end of a flight to see if they hold throughout a pack.

Any thoughts?

John

[Wh1teAfr1can]

It's not a problem as long as you go easy on it you have to remember that the esc is at a disadvantage here so just be careful I woul not suggest this for anything beyond very mild circuits or just hovering.

[Heli G]

Originally Posted by john2kx

I have made my first Kontronics purchase several weeks ago and have installed in a gaui x5. After tricking the ar7200bx, programming of the 100LV seemed pretty straight forward. I've been flying with a 57/60/65% TC and the governor seems to work really well.

In a effort to have a really slow head speed for hovering and light forward flight, I've tried to lower the head speed without dropping my TC below 50%. At this point, I was still over 2200 HS. I began lowering the TC 10% at a time until I got to 1770. The heli felt the way I wanted but my TC was at 23% to get the 1770HS.

I monitored one flight while hovering every minute or so and never felt the battery, motor or esc over being just barely warm to touch. I performed another 6 minute flight and still nothing abnormal while checking every minute or so.

I set the 100LV up per the instructions in the sticky section and believe it is done correctly. Using a 12x Tx, my throttle end points are at 100/100. The four batteries I'm using (purchased new for this heli) have about 20 flights each and all seem to have the same performance and charging characteristics.

I've seen the x5 hover as low as 1400HS for over 6 minutes of mild 3D using a YGE governor at 55%. So, I don't think I'm going after the impossible wanting to operate at 1770HS.

I don't want to continue flying this way after the number of warnings I've read about operating esc's too low (usually around 50%) from the threads I've read. But my temps seem fine, and high operating temperatures is what I thought was the concern when operated the way I am. I've got more than enough power in FFF, and in my 2 other flight modes, I'm at 2380 and 2480. I have not checked my HS near the end of a flight to see if they hold throughout a pack.

Any thoughts?

John

Been flying a 100LV for 18 months with a TC at 11%. This was used to practise precise ARs required for advance heli proficiency tests in mid 2011. I haven't bothered setting it back and have not had any negative effects on heat or other issues. I also ran a JLog on it and didn't notice any problems in the log data.

I haven't tested this on HJ mode 4 but would assume it would be fine if you run a TC below 50%, provided you don't go crazy.

[Heli G]

..

[SkyRaptor]

Originally Posted by john2kx

I don't want to continue flying this way after the number of warnings I've read about operating esc's too low (usually around 50%) from the threads I've read.

Such warning (running TC<50%) applies for ESC without "Active Free Wheeling".. this means all ESCs but not Kontroniks and YGE.. these both have AFW so they don't suffer on low Throotle conditions...

You can run your Kontronik all its life with TC 20% and it will not get hurt.

Just bear in mind the Governor gain is not tuned for TC<50% so the headspeed may not be as stable as TC>50%.. but if you are running low TC and enjoying the flight, no problem at all.

This is one of the advantages of Kontroniks the OP asked.

Best Regards.

Alex.

[john2kx]

Thanks for the info! I feel much better now that I won't damage the LV100.

[marcosp]

How can a so called K rep be so confusing and not even know the basic virtues of the K ESC line, like Active Freewheeling which allows low % governing as opposed to most other brands with Passive Freewheeling?

And that's just the last (and most evident) of the confusing answers. So many wrong concepts affirmed as undeniable truths. Quite annoying as well to see careful subtle bashing against MrMel. Fredrik, please come back!

[Wh1teAfr1can]

Originally Posted by SkyRaptor

Such warning (running TC<50%) applies for ESC without "Active Free Wheeling".. this means all ESCs but not Kontroniks and YGE.. these both have AFW so they don't suffer on low Throotle conditions...

You can run your Kontronik all its life with TC 20% and it will not get hurt.

Just bear in mind the Governor gain is not tuned for TC<50% so the headspeed may not be as stable as TC>50%.. but if you are running low TC and enjoying the flight, no problem at all.

This is one of the advantages of Kontroniks the OP asked.

Best Regards.

Alex.

Originally Posted by john2kx

Thanks for the info! I feel much better now that I won't damage the LV100.

As mentioned above Kontronik's feature active free wheeling which helps tremendously when using these low percentages.

basically it uses the fets in reverse to feed power back into the motor rather than feeding that power through a diode during the declining part of the PWM pulse. diodes create heat while using the fets does not.

the simplest way i can think of to explain it would be like a car that has normal brakes versus a car that has regenerative braking. if you are out on a freeway ie. full speed all the time it makes no difference but when you are in stop and go traffic it helps tremendously. when you use a car with normal brakes all stopping is converted into friction or heat. this is how a passive freewheeling esc would operate. Now on the other hand a regenerative braking system would instead capture that energy and save it for when the car needs to accelerate again and not use the disk brakes as much. active freewheeling acts in this way but instead of the energy being used on the next PWM pulse it is used on the back side of the pulse to extend the times between pulses. This not only helps to be more efficient in the use of battery power but the gained efficiency reduces the heat build up within the controller because the energy is going to the motor rather than wasted as heat.

Now there is a lot more that goes into it because the control of when the fet can be used and when it cannot is very crucial so results vary on the loading of the motor and the PWM rate that the motor is running.
Hope this helps.

[tommyd193]

Hey Gang Great read here, but of course a question... In the Goblin 700 manual it's recommended motors show using a jive120HV w/ Gov Yes at 80%, is this a true flat line throttle curve at 80% or is this the PWM calculation (80% threshold)?

I'm not sure if SAB and Kontronik have worked together to put this data in print, either way I just need some clarification.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

That's 80% pwm so it's between 60 and 65% flat line in the jive. Not sure if SAB worked with kontronik on this my thinking would be no.

[KidHeli]

Okay, first thanks for creating this thread. There is some good info here.

I think I may have mis calibrated my HJ for mode 5. I've based my TC's on these formulas found in this thread.

Calculation for TX TC% w/ recommended 80% PWM for HeliJive
PWM out = 50% + (TX% / 2)

Head Speed Calculation
((4.0Volts*# of cells * motor Kv) / gearing ratio)*PWM

So after programming mode 1, then mode 5 with bailout I set a flat TC 65% and let the heli spool up and run at a 0 degrees for about 60 sec.

I was surprised to see my HS top out at around 1700 RPM. I thought for sure I would be close to 1800-1850 since I got 1850 in mode 4 with 80% TC. I should be getting 1827 according to the HS formula right???

I'm flying a TDR with a 14T (gear reduction 11.47). Pyro BE 700 & BE HJ. Is it me, my math, or set up?

***Edit*** current TC & HS 65%=1470, 70%=1720, 80%=1890. According to JLog. Also PWM is worst at 80% TC, close to 100%.
Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

[Wh1teAfr1can]

I ran through and crunched your numbers and for 80% pwm I got 1750 that formula is not exact because all of this is dependent on a lot of factors battery health gear train etc shoot me a pm and I can explain further. You also should never exceed 70% on your throttle curve. What it's your target head speed? Ideally you want your top end head speed to be at 60-65% throttle curve. Whatever this may end up being.

[xkylar]

Originally Posted by Wh1teAfr1can

Ideally you want your top end head speed to be at 60-65% throttle curve.

Would this be the same for Heli Jive Mode 6? After reading the manual it says 65-70% max throttle curve. I've geared my heli for 70% following the manual. I hope it's ok.

[Wh1teAfr1can]

a little subjective I have learned that the larger heli s like closer to 60-65 while the smaller ones can take 70 it's more about pwm output and you want around 80 % at the beginning of the flight which is 60% throttle as your top end a lot of it is subjective its much easier to properly gauge it with logging and looking at the pwm output at the end of the flight.