Most wind-proof platform?

[R_Lefebvre]

I don't think the setup is too bad anymore. Really it's the GUI that makes it look intimidating because there is no "wizard", and they puke up a lot of settings that are not necessary on the screen. I don't think it's really much harder than any FBL controller would be. If anything, it's easier because you can do it all through telemetry.

How long would it take you to dial in any FBL heli from scratch?

[ignis]

450SE V2 took me between 50 and 70 hours from start of frame assembly to maiden flight, and that doesn't even include time in RealFlight. Mind you, I was younger, and a complete RC helicopter noob back then. My only previous RC experience was with nitro cars.

I imagine it would take much less time now, but the #1 law of RC aircraft is "you crash". And in case of helis a crash usually means going through the entire process of (re)building, setup and calibration. With multis the damage is mostly limited to props, and sometimes frame arms. So a new chunk of carbon fiber here, a fresh wire there, and I'd be pretty much good to go.

But the weirdest thing is that even though I may come across as someone who is biased towards multis, what I really want to get is a heli. I think it's a case of rational outward bias (towards multis) vs irrational inward bias (towards helis)

[R_Lefebvre]

What I mean by dial in is, from the time it's flight ready, how long to dial in the gains on the FBL to get them just right?

[SFACV]

Ignis, I appreciate the struggle you are going through right now. I have messed with a cheap multi for a while. But where I fly there is always wind to deal with and my initial feeling with that one is that I preferred the traditional heli. Now I know that the higer end multi's will be much better than the one I played with.

One thing I want to bring up that you mentioned earlier. Autorotations, with an autopilot you likely won't be quick enough to save it before the autopilot kills all headspeed. With that in mind, I don't recommend anyone get into AP with a traditional heli if they aren't experienced enough to be able to auto a heli. And I don't mean luck out once and pull it off. When I am sport flying I usually auto every flight. Keeps your reactions ready and if the time comes when you need to bail, you will find it natural. I have never had to bail when doing photo work yet but in sport flying with nitros I have had flameouts and the practice paid off more than once.

[R_Lefebvre]

That's an interesting point. I have wondered, how often do electric helis have power failures? I used to fly nitro planes in the past, so I know how often it happened. Actually, with a Saito 4-stroke and remote heat on the plug it was exceeding rare, but I digress.

How often does it happen with electric? I cannot auto. But I must have 100 flights without incident. Is it a real risk? Do ESC's just blow up when not being taxed? Is that more or less likely than a servo failure which will also ruin your day?

You are right however, that the autopilot will likely kill your chances to save it. Unless you have some indication of the problem, the autopilot will feed more collective until it's much too late for you to save it.

I have been toying with a rotor speed tachometer and tying it into the system. The pilot could get a rotor speed warning from ground control. If I was really smart, could it auto-auto-rotate? Dunno. The problem with auto-auto-rotation is that the critical point is the flare at the end. Has to be at just the right height. And how does the autopilot know where the ground is? The ground at any particular point of the flight path will not necessarily be the same as that of the launch point.

It could simply target a descent rate to keep the rotor speed above some minimum amount, and at least lessen the impact as much as possible.

I've also thought it possible to use a 2-channel tach, one on the motor, one on the rotor. Then it could detect the one-way has let loose and the motor is stopping even earlier.

But this is all very complicated stuff.

[ignis]

To be honest a complete power failure in an RC heli is not something I would even consider making contingencies against. Radio failure seems far more likely to me, and multis have a definite advantage of RTH functionality built in right into Naza H and many other controllers. Hell, even the mainstream ready-to-fly DJI Phantom will return to where it took off in the event of a radio malfunction.

Just think about it: a relatively inexpensive RTF platform has full autopilot with GPS and atti modes, requires no experience or sims to fly it, and if you find a brushless 2 axis gimbal for it, can be used to make professional video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RC helis are very, very far away from offering something like that. I'm not saying the whole situation is good or bad, but that right there is the reason why multis are gaining popularity like crazy, and why more aerial photographers seem to choose them over helis these days.

[R_Lefebvre]

Whether or not a heli or multi flight controller has RTH is completely up to the choice of the user to buy a system that has that function or not. It is not a solid indicator of an advantage of one platform over the other.

Similarly the rest of it. GPS, Atti modes, etc. just buy a controller for a heli that has it if you want that. This is not a deciding factor.

[SFACV]

Originally Posted by ignis

Just think about it: a relatively inexpensive RTF platform has full autopilot with GPS and atti modes, requires no experience or sims to fly it, and if you find a brushless 2 axis gimbal for it, can be used to make professional video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RC helis are very, very far away from offering something like that. I'm not saying the whole situation is good or bad, but that right there is the reason why multis are gaining popularity like crazy, and why more aerial photographers seem to choose them over helis these days.

You are absolutely right on this,

But it is a little concerning that someone can spend a few hundered bucks and not have a clue what they are getting into, then go into a croweded public place and risk the lives or well being of innocent bystanders. And no not everyone is that inconsiderate but there is enough that are to jeopardize this for the rest of us. When you need to spend a couple months learning how to hover, then the rest of the year progressing into forward flight and a few other maneuvers you learn to respect the machine, and get tired of fixing it all the time. But the most important thing it teaches is different flight characteristics of aircraft that you only learn by flying in different situations with wind etc. Hopefully you were involved in a club and had a safe place to learn. After that, even if you were to do something risky in a populated area your chances of the "unexpected" causing confusion and panic are much less. You are also aware of how unpredictable these things can be if you slip on inputs and you will be less likely to do flights in areas that can endanger people. Nobody sets out to do harm, but its is just as bad if you don't take the time to understand the danger before hand.

Ignis, I know this may not apply to you but it has been an ongoing concern and getting worse specifically because of the comments you have made. Don't let me discourage you, but more just be aware of what is taking place.

[Av8Chuck]

There's no single right answer here, there are a lot of variables and it also depends on what your trying to accomplish. I fly in the same wind with my Hexacopter as a lot of guys who have large 800's, a turbine heli etc, no problem. Depending how you define stability.

In no way is my $2500 Hex as stable as my friends $25,000 turbine heli but I didn't spend $25K and if I was going to spend that kind of money I'd probably move up the Multirotor food chain a bit with an X8 or Cinestar8.

I suck at flying RC-Helis, which really annoys me since I'm a helicopter pilot, but flying Mutli's is a lot more manageable for me. I also don't do this as a hobby and have no interest in aerobatics or sport flying. I just want to be able to fly to a spot and have a reasonable expectation that it will stay there at the altitude I set so that I can get the video I want. My Multi does that pretty well.

Also, since its supposedly illegal to charge for AP in the U.S., I preflight and mount the camera before I load it into the van so when I get to the location I simply turn the camera on and set exposure, walk over to where I'm going to launch from, plugin the battery and I'm usually done before most people even know I got there. I'm sure you can do the same thing with a Heli but I find it very easy to keep a low profile with a Multi.

[Titusx]

Originally Posted by Av8Chuck

...In no way is my $2500 Hex as stable as my friends $25,000 turbine heli but I didn't spend $25K and if I was going to spend that kind of money I'd probably move up the Multirotor food chain a bit with an X8 or Cinestar8...

An 800 size heli cost as much as you hex, Logo XXtreme cost $2700. All you have to add are servos and receiver.

[Av8Chuck]

Originally Posted by Titusx

An 800 size heli cost as much as you hex, Logo XXtreme cost $2700. All you have to add are servos and receiver.

Sure, but a Logo XXtreme isn't a turbine Heli either and you might be surprised how much a $3500 X8 multi can carry and how stable it is.

I'm really not trying to debate the virtues of heli vs multirotors, I already know I suck at flying heli's so for me their not an option anyway.

I just spoke up for others who might be aeronautically challenged.

[Titusx]

Originally Posted by Av8Chuck

Sure, but a Logo XXtreme isn't a turbine Heli either and you might be surprised how much a $3500 X8 multi can carry and how stable it is.

I'm really not trying to debate the virtues of heli vs multirotors, I already know I suck at flying heli's so for me their not an option anyway.

I just spoke up for others who might be aeronautically challenged.

What I want to say, is that you could buy a high capacity lifting heli for the same price of an hexa. At the same price range, the heli could lift more weight that an multi. With a Logo XXtreme I done some test, and could lift easily 4,6kg of playload + 2,5 kg of batteries.

What is important of an heli is its size, more than its power plant. An 800 size heli, electric, turbine or gasser, could handle the same payload and wind conditions.

If you suck at flying helis, there are a lot of autopilot systems that could make you life easier, just pull collective and fly like a multi.

[R_Lefebvre]

If you suck at flying helis, there are a lot of autopilot systems that could make you life easier, just pull collective and fly like a multi.

That's what I keep saying. It's completely false that a multirotor flies easier than a heli. It's only because of the controller! If you put an equivalent controller on a heli, it flies just as easily as a Multi. In fact it's easier. My new 600 FBL heli is like a rock in the air, even with wind. Far more stable than any multi I have seen in wind. Even my 450, super stable. I was at the club on Sunday and our heli instructor said he's never seen a 450 fly like that.

[ignis]

Originally Posted by R_Lefebvre

That's what I keep saying. It's completely false that a multirotor flies easier than a heli. It's only because of the controller! If you put an equivalent controller on a heli, it flies just as easily as a Multi. In fact it's easier. My new 600 FBL heli is like a rock in the air, even with wind. Far more stable than any multi I have seen in wind. Even my 450, super stable. I was at the club on Sunday and our heli instructor said he's never seen a 450 fly like that.

Let's not forget that you are an ArduCopter developer. You know the system probably better than anyone, so is it really any surprise that it performs well in your hands? 99.9% of ArduCopter users do not have the benefit of your familiarity to help them set it up and perfect its operation.

[Valkman]

A large RC heli will be the most wind proof platform due to the gyroscopic effect of the blades. Add a good e-stab system that a multi needs and it's even better.
We are not talking about cost here.......as you can spend very little or a lot on both platforms and you do not need to spend over 2000 on a decent 800 size heli. The question was " most wind-proof platform ".
This of course......IMO !
PS...the ArduCopter has a hell of a lot of backup and support with some really techo guys on the forum along with R_Lefebvre who helps everyone......so you don't have to be Bill Gates to get it going properly !

[R_Lefebvre]

Originally Posted by ignis

Let's not forget that you are an ArduCopter developer. You know the system probably better than anyone, so is it really any surprise that it performs well in your hands? 99.9% of ArduCopter users do not have the benefit of your familiarity to help them set it up and perfect its operation.

It's not that hard to use. And the more people using it, the more support there will be. We've even had Jolyboy jump in and become a developer already. He's working on bringing Piro Comp to the system.

The PID tuning stuff, I think anybody who's programmed any other FBL controller should be able to do it no problem. The only scary thing is that we use the actual technical terms instead of hiding behind "friendly" sounding terms like "Bell Gain" "Hiller Gain", etc.

You'll also never have to try and decipher hooey like this:





Anyway, the main point I'm getting at here is the question is which is the most windproof platform. IMO, helis are more windproof. But most people's opinions are coloured by the fact that MR's have more, and cheaper, stabilization systems. But that doesn't make them better by itself. You just have to buy a stabilization system for your heli. And there are choices. Arducopter, which sells for the same price as for MR's. It's the same hardware afterall. Or Wookong-H I understand also does a good job of stabilization. If you want waypoints, then Ace One.

What about Align APS? What about the new Skookum system? Helicommand?

The only REAL difference here is that the heli systems tend to cost more than MR systems, and often offer less features. You guys, the market, must demand better. Part of the problem is that a such a large portion of the heli market carries two opinions:

1) Yar! I'm awesome, I don't need stabilization. Stabilization is for sissies.

2) If it's cheap, it's crap. If it's expensive, it's better.

It's no wonder so many Flight Control systems manufacturers charge so much for systems without stabilization.

[scanner62]

Originally Posted by nooobs

Goldenhour a 600 is capable of higher winds than 40mph.

ignis don't think electric platforms can't cause fire.

Most large helis can handle strong winds.
http://rosaurophotography.com/misc/v..._the_wind.html

You quote 40mph above but video states kmh....bit of a difference

[nooobs]

You quote 40mph above but video states kmh....bit of a difference

You got that confused.

First I was referring to the 600 with the 40mph. I quoted mph as Goldenhour is American.

The video has nothing to do with the 40mph quoted above. The wind speed in the video in is Km as that is the speed standard here. The heli is the video is a 800. Not a 600.

[R_Lefebvre]

Yeah but the point still stands. 35 km/h is not a big deal. 40 mph is quite a big deal. I would be very interested to see a video of a helicopter flying in 40 mph winds. The problem is not so much the pure velocity, it's the fact that 40 mph wind is going to be quite turbulent.

It's not the same thing at all as flying forward at 40 mph in a low wind state. I'm now flying waypoints at 100 km/h with my 600, shooting for 120 km/h (75 mph).

Here's a neat video showing wind performance of a quad, actually pretty impressive, but a heli running the same code will be even better:

[nooobs]

Rob what's the big deal with 40mph (64kh/h) wind? You obviously haven't pushed your limits. I'm flown a 600 at 52mph (85km/h) for the sake of pushing my limits. Will I do it again? Hell no!

Test your skills some time...