Dahl and competing. The state of competition in the US

[KSHeli]

Originally Posted by hemp

I do think there's some truth that as we age we become less naturally competitive - probably a result of changing hormones, plus a realization with wisdom that there are more important things in life and death than whether or not you flew a model helicopter better than someone else.

+1

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by hemp

I'm not sure how old you are Fredrik, or what your physical circumstances are, so I can't argue that. I certainly respect your wisdom and all that you've done for the hobby. But at 34 I am confident that I can learn just as fast as a 17 year old, or at least close enough that I can make up the difference. I started flying almost exactly two years ago and am working on polishing my piro funnels and locking in piro loops (reversing all). "Simple" maneuvers like hurricanes and funnels (all orientations) were picked up months ago and I continue to refine but they're more or less automatic.

I didn't intend to make it personal, and I'm not bragging about my natural abilities; as I have none. What I do have is natural determination and a will to compete (otherwise known as "talent"). I watch video of top pilots doing their best flights and I spend the next few weeks trying to pick up and master maneuvers that I hadn't seen or tried before. Obviously they remain head and shoulders beyond anything I can do right now, but I'm confident that with enough time I could catch up, so long as I don't give in to the apparently common belief that I can't do it because I'm "too old". If they continue to progress while I'm busy catching up then it's possible I would never be at their level, but that's assuming they continue to progress. The reality is that the better you get, the harder it is to improve, which is how people are able to catch up.

It's surprising to me that we've become so convinced that exceptional performance is the result of youth and/or natural ability that we just give up trying (for all pursuits, not just helis.) There was a time (before my generation) when hard work was viewed as the main ingredient to excellence in anything.

Trying to compete with today's youth by practicing only on real models is a fool's endeavor. They are learning on the simulator so we must also. I spend two to three hours a night on the sim unless circumstances prevent it with a goal of over 1000 hours on the year. That's in addition to as much time during the day flying real models as I can manage, but with a full time job and a family, that time is harder to come by. Anyone doing less than that has no room to complain about the young guys progressing faster, because those young guys are putting in the time. The few who aren't but do just have natural ability are of no competitive concern - they wash out once it gets hard and are content to be demo pilots.

Obviously I'm drawing a lot of conclusions with very little hard data. So take it for what you will. I stand behind my belief that hard work always wins out over natural ability. The ones who win major competitions have the extremely rare combination of both. I'm not in that group, and I'm fine with it. I do not think I was in that group when I was 15 either.

That's great progress! But you're still at the beginning of the advanced 3D stuff. There is a huge leap from piro flips, piro funnels to truly pro class flying.

Golf as an analogy -- I believe anyone in decent physical shape could probably get to be a scratch golfer. But the difference between a country club scratch golfer and a world class pro is a grand canyon apart.

I have no doubt you'll be (or already are) a great 3D pilot, and people will come to IRCHA and talk about your flight. But from there to having a legitimate chance to win in masters class at Helimasters is a grand canyon apart.

I was progressing pretty much at the same rate as you back in 2011. And witnessed the birth of one of the next great pro's who I flew with weekly. And saw how he accelerated and became a world class pilot at an incredible rate. He was 11 then. 14 now.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I think you are and will be an awesome pilot. But just trying to bring a tiny amount of reality into it. If you manage to get in to masters class and have a legitimate chance of beating guys like Kyle, I will literally kiss your ass on film, because you will be a true inspiration to the rest of us "old"" guys like you. Your actions will be ground breaking, and every guy in this hobby will know your name. Your Facebook account will be maxed at 5000 friends. :-)

I will also add that the same 14 year old certainly didn't sim hours a night, or even fly every weekend. The right ingredient isn't just hard work.

[hemp]

Originally Posted by OnTheSnap

I will literally kiss your ass on film

Sorry, I didn't read anything before or after that line. Was it relevant?

The vast majority of people who try to win Masters never do, regardless of what age they start flying. This really shouldn't be about me - I'm a poor example. It's about encouraging competition rather than discouraging it. Our current culture, unique to RC helicopters, seems to be that if you don't think you have a real shot at winning a major then you shouldn't bother competing at all. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[mkovalcson]

While there is a continuum of ability and some variability, younger minds are more malliable and rewire much quicker. They learn new languages faster and anything involving reflexes much faster.

Most people can't really afford this hobby until they too old to have a chance to be competitive, but that is the same with many sports. If your parents aren't willing and able to fund a lot of hobbies and sports it is impossible to start early enough to be seriously competitive.

And most sports require huge time commitments to be truely competitive.

A hobby should be enjoyed on your own terms.

I've also watched a teenager start, blow by me and then get completely bored with RC Helis in one year.

[OnTheSnap]

Originally Posted by hemp

Sorry, I didn't read anything before or after that line. Was it relevant?

The vast majority of people who try to win Masters never do, regardless of what age they start flying. This really shouldn't be about me - I'm a poor example. It's about encouraging competition rather than discouraging it. Our current culture, unique to RC helicopters, seems to be that if you don't think you have a real shot at winning a major then you shouldn't bother competing at all. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

OK, well that's fine if you want to throw my little joke back in my face. Maybe I deserve it. (-:

I think you twisted the entire debate in this last post. I thought you were saying you could get to the same level as the top pro's. I disagreed and countered saying we ought to have competitions for different ages (and I agree skill is a fine divider too, like pro, advanced, intermediate).

Europe already has all this. In the US if you want to compete there are not any real options. True, in XFC there were a bunch of "advanced" pilots nowhere near the top pros. Which is great. And maybe they kinda had their own sub competition anyway.

This all dissolved into an age debate. I think it's great you believe you can get to a top pro level. I'd be elated to see it. I have seen guys in your spot get to a good "demo pro" level. Never to a masters level "competition pro". These are different animals.

But looking at the better pilots out there, there are tons of fantastic guys to watch that are not competitive. Bert, Tareq, Tim Jones, etc are examples of this. They are specialists at what they do. But realize they are not guys that are going to go compete at Helimasters. Could they? Sure. Could they walk in to it with a competitive chance to win? No. But here you counter that statement with, "you don't need to compete to win". Sure I agree with that. Compete for fun or to reach your own personal goals. So yes, even though they may not be competitive with the top 15 guys in the competition, they could be in the contest.

Anyway, hope to see your flights on Heli-Daily soon. (-:

[EEngineer]

I like the idea of age classes.

In the US, with regards to fix-winged aerobatics, they have the standard AMA competiton categories(which are open to all ages in the NATS).....and they have local contests in which one has to use legacy pattern aircraft performing legacy pattern manuevers, again open to all ages.

Perhaps that's a way to encourage more participation....

With regards to our "youts", they will always need us "old fogies"....

Because we.....have to re-build their broken helis while they text their friends....

And we have the proper tools to do so....

And where will they get the money from?

Until they realize that, we have the edge.......

[helirifick]

May be the proliferation of quads and n-copters have something to do with the dis-interest in helis, at least here in the US?? I don't know, I see my LHS selling quads/multicopters like hotcakes, whereas the helis don't move at all.

As far as age -- yeah, probably, the synapses aren't propagating signals as fast as they used to, although I never really had quick reflexes, and I did know 4 or 5 different languages, but currently am fluent in 2. What's the nerve impulse propagation speed ??? I recall ~ 110 m/sec. I am in my mid-40's and my vision has gone to crap due to having to be on steroid meds, so yeah, it sucks.

Been flying for 2.5 years. I can hobble backwards inverted sort of. If I spent lots of time on the sim, I'd be good. I wish RealFlight7 that I bought, ran in my friggin VMWare in my Mac. Now I gotta buy a separate PC with discrete graphics card for it. No biggie.

[thefrog]

Re the whole teenager/old guy/age debate. I think there's another dimension to this - time on hand. I'm 36, I sure as hell don't have 2 to 3 hours per day or more to spend on the sim or weekends to spend flying. Granted, some people progress fast without much practice, but for us 'regular' folks getting those extra hours in makes a bit difference to the speed of progress.

I also don't think I pick things up as quickly now as when I was younger. I also don't think I have the same razor sharp focus. I have a busy career and family life, numerous distractions and external stressors. So essentially a preoccupied mind. If I were single and self absorbed now then maybe I'd learn at a faster pace but I highly doubt I'd be a competitive pilot. I've flown comps for fun and I was nowhere compared to the youngsters. I can't even begin to imagine what its like at something like heli masters.

[KSHeli]

I did the flight school at Mid-America and had the pleasure of having Kyle Stacy and AJ Jaffe as my buddy boxing partners, both very enjoyable to be around.
Kyle stated that he sim atleast 2 hours and gets in 10-12 flights everyday possible, some days there maybe more simming. Kyle stated that he has his sim heli performing just like his helis.
His performance at XFC was the heli flying what seemed 100+mph and no unintentional pauses like he was l thinking of what was coming next. Kyle is seemed to be flying well ahead of the heli. Awesome flights.

[Obijuan Kenobe]

Originally Posted by KSHeli

I did the flight school at Mid-America and had the pleasure of having Kyle Stacy and AJ Jaffe as my buddy boxing partners, both very enjoyable to be around.
Kyle stated that he sim atleast 2 hours and gets in 10-12 flights everyday possible, some days there maybe more simming. Kyle stated that he has his sim heli performing just like his helis.
His performance at XFC was the heli flying what seemed 100+mph and no unintentional pauses like he was l thinking of what was coming next. Kyle is seemed to be flying well ahead of the heli. Awesome flights.

2 hours of SIM work and 10-12 flights 5 days per week would improve any FREAKS flying skills. I suspect this is the main difference between very skilled FREAKS and sponsored ones...just dedication above all else.

Let's be clear. That is Kyle confessing to giving up 3 hours per day at least FLYING helicopters. I suspect there are more than a few FREAKS that spend more time than that commuting to work everyday!!

Even a 35 year old would make progress regularly with that schedule. One might not reach Helimasters level...but you would improve tremendously at a rapid pace irrespective of raw talent for the entire time you flew that schedule.

obi

[mkovalcson]

Keep in mind that Kyle has a shelf life as a competitive flier too!

He is on top of his game right now, but in a few years there will be someone nipping at his heals. So right now he has street credibility in this market that he will be able to leverage in the future and he's getting a college education. Where he goes with that is up to him and his abilities to help sell products, design products, create a brand and product lines of his own or take all the business experience he learned in this hobby and apply it somewhere else.

The skills he is learning while being an ambassador in this hobby, and not just being a sponsored pilot but being on the inside of a company involved in other aspects of its operation will be huge to him later on in life. It takes a lot of discipline to do what he is doing right now and these experiences will be extremely valuable to him in the future.

Think about his age and the fact he is a world traveler, comfortable in front of large audiences, and has learned to carry himself well. These skills have legs!

Being a top rated pilot is cool and fun, but in the big picture it will be a stepping stone.

[dahld]

KSHeli wrote:

"Kyle stated that he sim at least 2 hours and gets in 10-12 flights everyday possible, some days there maybe more simming."

And mkovalcson wrote:

"Keep in mind that Kyle has a shelf life...He is on top of his game right now..."

FWIW, KSHeli was referring to Kyle Stacy when it comes to sim use. Kyle (Dahl) hasn't used a simulator for competition practice in years.

But for either "Kyle", mkovalcson is right...they can't stay on top forever. I know from talking with K.Dahl, that he already (at age 20), realizes some young kid is probably going to come along pretty quick and kick his butt.

(-: Dahl

[TimZ]

I really enjoy reading this thread. About to hit 33 myself and I can relate to the 'losing that competitive edge' and realizing there is more to life than being awesome at X.

Speaking about myself I don't 'feel' like I've lost allot of my reflexes compared to my teenager years, but that might be my optimistic side. I do however agree a young mind is allot more willing to absorb new experiences and take those experiences to wire new pathways in the brain.

Sometimes a YouTube movie pops up where a 7 year old is doing smack like nobody's business. When I see things like that I'm always baffled by the learning power of a young mind. But I consider myself still "young"!

[mahbouni]

Originally Posted by dahld

But for either "Kyle", mkovalcson is right...they can't stay on top forever. I know from talking with K.Dahl, that he already (at age 20), realizes some young kid is probably going to come along pretty quick and kick his butt.

(-: Dahl

I think there's more to it than just fast reflexes and being able to learn quick. Anyone can become a good pilot if they put the time and effort in, but not many pilots have the creativity and artisticness of K Dahl. Sure he may get beat in the future by someone, but that person would also be exceptional.

As for younger kids doing well, I see a pattern that seems to be common among the best of the younger pilots. They all seem to have a dad who supports them in the hobby. I don't think many kids would be able to get so far if they had to pay for, build, setup and fix their own helis. Then there's the free Dad's taxi service to and from the field.

[ElectricSheep]

Originally Posted by hemp

I stand behind my belief that hard work always wins out over natural ability.

I respectfully disagree; I believe the saying is:

"Hard work beats talent -- when talent doesn't work hard."


However, I fully agree when you say:

Originally Posted by hemp

The ones who win major competitions have the extremely rare combination of both.

Winning is what happens when talent works extremely hard. (A little bit of luck doesn't hurt, either)

Cheers

[rando]

Originally Posted by el guapo

I'd propose 4 classes:
begineer, sport, expert, adavanced and Pro.

for example:
begineers class: would demonstrate take off, tail in hover, figure 8 and a nose in hover and landing
sport class: would demonstrate all orentations and a backward figure 8. inverted tail in hover.
Expert: inverted flight, tic tocs, piro flips, funnels, auto rotation (not with a 130X)
Advanced: piro loops, rev piroflips, inverted autos (not with a 130X)
Pro: everything.

I count 5 ... is that the age thing on display?

[el guapo]

Originally Posted by rando

I count 5 ... is that the age thing on display?

with all do respect, you are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!...I've always been that dumb.

[rando]

Originally Posted by el guapo

with all do respect, you are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!...I've always been that dumb.

That just happened!

[el guapo]

Originally Posted by rando

That just happened!

i blame my attention span.

just think about all the chaos if there wasn't guys checking grammar.

[rando]

It's a debatable grammar error. More likely, just a spelling error attributable to age. It's a joke in joke. You'll never convince me it wasn't on purpose!

In any case, I'm old and apparently incapable of ever achieving pro level flight. My future heli career now in ruins, what else am I to do?